Bass Guitar Mag Janek Gwidzala

[FJ1200]

Got bored reading every post after page 13 and jumped straight to the end.

I wanted to pick up on some things others have said and stick my own oar in. It's a shame this seemed to degenerate into a slanging match. I'm a crap player and I know it even after 26 years - but that's 26 years of nearly no practice or discipline and sheer practised laziness. I now very much regret that and find it badly hinders what I want to play, so I've started - at 45 years old - taking lessons again. And the first thing Nick pointed out was to do with my technique and something I'm now working on (thanks Nick) and has made a difference. Someone on another site also said when reading music (or in my case - looking at the pretty dots in a somewhat bemused fashion) have your bass neck in the same sightline as the music and not - as I've always done - at 90 degrees to it. So I've dropped the height of my music stand a bit and the neck nicely goes over the top of it - all in one line of sight. Again - it's made a massive difference so I don't have my eyes off the music for more than a second, but something I've never thought of.

A pro athlete practices for hours often on things nothing to do with their discipline. F1 drivers spend hours in the gym or on mountain bikes to keep all levels of fitness up. The army practice all kinds of scenarios - even pretty unthinkable ones - just so if it happens they know what to do. These people practice over and over doing the most mundane routines. Scales bore me rigid but I'm starting to look at them again. So that when I come to need them - as with the other disciplines here - I can do it almost without thinking about it. I have stiff joints in my fingers - on the left hand caused by a surface grinder accident many years ago, but I found that playing fast helps to loosen up my fingers so I can play slower stuff better but I only do it when I'm practising (or showing off to the kids/wife). (Who are usually very impressed). (Except my wife!). (Who knows NOTHING!!).

I wish I could do 10 hours a day! If it's a chosen career and passion then all your energy surely must go into it - I'm in IT, so I go on courses and study stuff to be better at it. Must admit technical playing for the sake of it not always my cuppa (didn't 'get' the playing on the video either - I lasted about 30 seconds) - but neither is Jazz, and I've just bought a £2.99 4-CD set for the car to try to get my head round it and to try a different style than blues. I'm also trying slap for the same reason.

I'm always open to learning new stuff but I think I'll always come back to simple blues and R'n'B (that's proper R'n'B - not the stuff they pass off for it in the charts these days!)

Lets learn from each other and - as I've often heard/said - chew the meat and spit out the bones. Wouldn't it be a dull world if we were all the same, liked the same things, produced the same music, drove the same car/bike, had the same bass, etc. Be thankful for variety and creativity in whatever music it takes. In some parts of the world it's actively repressed. It takes people who push the boundaries, stretch the limits and go places we only dream of to show the rest of us what's possible. Without them much of what we in the 20th / 21st Century take for granted would not have been possible. And they got derided too.....

I'll get off me soap-box now.

[3V17C]

[quote name='dlloyd' post='155245' date='Mar 11 2008, 12:51 PM']Now, KP Discos in Ready Salted were the best reconstituted potato snack ever. I haven't seen them for years.[/quote]


you should get yourself down to Morrisons - they always have them on offer, buy one get one free (i say you buy one, you get one free!) - six pack - cheese and onion, salt and vinegar AND ready salted!


peace


c

[Bilbo]

[quote name='FJ1200' post='155311' date='Mar 11 2008, 02:27 PM']I've just bought a £2.99 4-CD set for the car to try to get my head round it[/quote]

It's no wonder jazz has such a bad name - these £2.99 compilations do so much harm for jazz its unreal. 4 cds for 3 quid? Let me guess: Louis Armstrong, Lionel Hampton, Teddy Wilson, Dave Brubeck, Peggy Lee - all on wax cylinders - am I right? Not necessarily bad artists but these reciordings are almost always obscure outtakes, early left overs, dodgy live cuts. - Its like judging all Sci-Fi on the basis of 'The Mouse On The Moon'.

DESTROY IT!! DESTROY IT!! Buy a copy of 'Jazzwise' and look for something that takes your fancy!

[BigBeefChief]

Jazzwise?

Isn't that an oxymoron?!



Ahhhhhhhh!!!!!! It's happening again!!!!!

[BOD2]

You can run but you can't hide..... (he says while tapping out a 5/4 beat on the table top)

[cheddatom]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='155375' date='Mar 11 2008, 04:05 PM']Ahhhhhhhh!!!!!! It's happening again!!!!![/quote]

[BigBeefChief]

I kinda like that!

[cheddatom]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='155396' date='Mar 11 2008, 04:33 PM']I kinda like that![/quote]

You chin-stroking widdle-wonder!

[FJ1200]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='155366' date='Mar 11 2008, 03:44 PM']It's no wonder jazz has such a bad name - these £2.99 compilations do so much harm for jazz its unreal. 4 cds for 3 quid? Let me guess: Louis Armstrong, Lionel Hampton, Teddy Wilson, Dave Brubeck, Peggy Lee - all on wax cylinders - am I right? Not necessarily bad artists but these reciordings are almost always obscure outtakes, early left overs, dodgy live cuts. - Its like judging all Sci-Fi on the basis of 'The Mouse On The Moon'.

DESTROY IT!! DESTROY IT!! Buy a copy of 'Jazzwise' and look for something that takes your fancy![/quote]


It's Classic Jazz, traditional stuff. No idea what - I'm not a jazz fan but it's ok. Only listened to CD 3 so far. Mix of vocal, instrumental, slow, fast, medium, all sorts. I really don't like modern stuff - all seems a bit messy to me, but then I'm no expert. I'll let you know what's on it but it was more to get a feel of the genre rather than for the artists themselves and I'm not going to spend £12 on a CD I may only play once and decide I hate it. My wife loves Ella and Nina Simone and has loads of it and I like some of that. Does that help?

Edit> Anyway, some of it is really nice to chill out to on the way home after a stressed day at work and then stuck in traffic on the A605 in the eternal roadworks and really helps me to wind down - I find that unexpected but very pleasant.

Edited March 11, 2008 by FJ1200

[FJ1200]

right - home now, its Classic Jaz - The Ultimate Collection. Doesn't have any of the artists you mentioned.

See [url="http://www.demonmusicgroup.co.uk/Product.aspx?ProductID=3151"]http://www.demonmusicgroup.co.uk/Product.aspx?ProductID=3151[/url]

Is it good?

Edited March 11, 2008 by FJ1200

[Jase]

Credit where credit is due...it had Dave Brubeck on it ...Bilbo was a smidge right Joking aside, it has some huge artists on there, I've heard a few of the tracks but I'm no jazz expert. If you're into it...job done in my book!

[FJ1200]

[quote name='Jase' post='155482' date='Mar 11 2008, 07:10 PM']Credit where credit is due...it had Dave Brubeck on it ...Bilbo was a smidge right Joking aside, it has some huge artists on there, I've heard a few of the tracks but I'm no jazz expert. If you're into it...job done in my book![/quote]

Must have missed that one - my appologies.

[Jase]

[quote name='FJ1200' post='155619' date='Mar 11 2008, 10:43 PM']Must have missed that one - my appologies. [/quote]


No need to apologise

[7string]

[quote name='mcgraham' post='155066' date='Mar 11 2008, 07:31 AM']7string, I see your point about not writing it with Janek in mind and I agree, not particularly mature to colour things like that to appear like a suck up. But I [i]do[/i] think it's important to ensure that we phrase our posts such that if the person we are writing about did read them then they could take something from it. Not saying they have to like our opinion, but if you are honest and objective about what you like and don't like it'll help significantly. I did have more written out but it's too offtopic and would only serve to confuse my point.[/quote]

Yup, totally agree and I think there was enough in the OP for Janek to know it was a question which was easy for him to answer (it was a misprint).

From what I've read here and on TB, those who post on here are not frightened of voicing opinion which may not agree with another player (professional or not).. The stuff in Janek's own part of TB really is a bit too lovey-dovey. Even though it may not have been voiced in quite the right manner some of the time, there was enough material to know what the thread was getting at. Janek then decided to wade in...

In my opinion, jazz is one genre that always seems to be portrayed as requiring more skill and knowledge than any other (even more than "classical") and so the nature of articles from jazz players, I find, tend either to be based on theory and/or technique rather than feel, emotion or creativity.



By the way, what ever happened to the crisps with the little blue salt bag. I remember finding 2 salt bags in 1 packet when I was a kid and that was me happy for the whole day!

[Buzz]

[quote name='7string' post='155680' date='Mar 12 2008, 12:43 AM']By the way, what ever happened to the crisps with the little blue salt bag. I remember finding 2 salt bags in 1 packet when I was a kid and that was me happy for the whole day![/quote]

Smith's Salt and Shake.

Smith's is now owned by Walkers I think, but Salt and Shake's are still going well. Havn't changed the recipe either I don't think, so they're full fat crisps of loveliness, only thing that's changed is the bag, from the thin flimsy plastic with clear bits, to a standard foil lined-esque one. Still white though

Available in a fair few news agents, and all leading supermarkets

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='7string' post='155680' date='Mar 12 2008, 12:43 AM']In my opinion, jazz is one genre that always seems to be portrayed as requiring more skill and knowledge than any other (even more than "classical") and so the nature of articles from jazz players, I find, tend either to be based on theory and/or technique rather than feel, emotion or creativity.[/quote]

I understand that you see the genre as its portrayed and thats perfectly fair. However I think the one thing that has been consistently overlooked here is that the whole point of good technical facility is to free your playing so that emotion and creativity are [i]more[/i] accessible, it has been mentioned earlier but nobody seems to take it on board, in jazz creativity is paramount. If I play a walking line on a blues I will play some things the same, and there are lines I will repeat, but essentially no two times will be the same. Jazz requires a large musical vocabulary, and one of the reasons people find it objectionable at first is because its like hearing a language you don't understand, boring to begin with, then you start to make sense of it, and if you keep listening its not long before you're fluent.
There is more creativity on a good jazz gig than many players will encounter in their entire playing lives.

Edit:
to respond to another of your observations, classical music is just as knowledge based as jazz, but the emphasis is on performance, and the ability to reproduce flawlessly, which good classical musicians can do to stunning degrees.
I have met and played with all types of musicians and in my view each has their merits.

Edited March 12, 2008 by jakesbass

[7string]

It's just a different kind of creativity. I wouldn't say that one genre is more/less creative than another. DJ's mix records together, punk bands make 2 minute songs, it's all different kinds of creativty.

I do accept the analogy about language, but even when you understand the language you still might not like the sound of what's being created.

I would disagree with the classical/jazz comparison. In my experience, classical musicians take it for granted that they have the technique and theory to perform in the way that the conductor (who interprets the music) wants them to. In jazz, there seems to be an opinion that if you don't like jazz, you don't understand enough theory or don't have enough technique to play it.

Edited March 12, 2008 by 7string

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='7string' post='155686' date='Mar 12 2008, 01:04 AM']It's just a different kind of creativity. I wouldn't say that one genre is more/less creative than another. DJ's mix records together, punk bands make 2 minute songs, it's all different kinds of creativty.

I do accept the analogy about language, but even when you understand the language you still might not like the sound of what's being created.[/quote]
Complete agreement.
I suppose I was referring to the fact that lots of people will spend a lifetime playing covers. Which I also happen to think is entirely valid. just by definition less creative

Edited March 12, 2008 by jakesbass

[7string]

I thought that it was jazz guys who spend a lifetime playing covers, oops, standards.

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='7string' post='155686' date='Mar 12 2008, 01:04 AM']I would disagree with the classical/jazz comparison. In my experience, classical musicians take it for granted that they have the technique and theory to perform in the way that the conductor (who interprets the music) wants them to. In jazz, there seems to be an opinion that if you don't like jazz, you don't understand enough theory or don't have enough technique to play it.[/quote]
I wasn't strictly making a comparison, more likening the two in terms of ability but with different purposes/outcomes.
I do take the point about the perception of liking jazz/technical ability, which is an easy answer to people who do like jazz to explain why others don't, and even though I love and play jazz i do encounter a snobbishness amongst some (not all) of its players that they are somehow deserving of an awestruck audience. The real world usually bites if, as I am, you're making a living from playing, but I love an audience enjoying any style of music I might happen to be playing and I'm eternally grateful that I'm able to play my bass for money. As I always say, "beats working for a living".

Edited March 12, 2008 by jakesbass

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='7string' post='155691' date='Mar 12 2008, 01:13 AM']I thought that it was jazz guys who spend a lifetime playing covers, oops, standards.[/quote]
Thats unfair and a little childish, there is masses of new music in the genre, standards require personal interpretation and are a good training ground.

[Beedster]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='152384' date='Mar 6 2008, 02:04 PM']Glad I'm not the only one.


All I'd like is a bit of honesty. Whats wrong with admitting the new MIA Jazz is overpriced with little improvement? What's wrong with stating that a bass solo album is crap? If your brave enought to release a product/album to the world then your brave enough to get some honest opinion about it.[/quote]

+1, although this is not just a bass phenomenon.
Chris

[mcgraham]

[quote]to respond to another of your observations, classical music is just as knowledge based as jazz, but the emphasis is on performance, and the ability to reproduce flawlessly, which good classical musicians can do to stunning degrees.
I have met and played with all types of musicians and in my view each has their merits.[/quote]

I would perhaps submit that classical musicians, whilst immensely knowledgeable about a great deal more than just theory, do not endeavour to improve their ability to improvise or create pieces by application of this knowledge, as it really isn't a needed skill (outside of those who are classical composers)

I'm not saying that classical musicians are not creative, nor lazy, but whilst a portion of [i]our[/i] time is split (ideally) between technical ability, writing/creativity/improv or whatever 'area' you wish to call it, and performance, they just do not have the need to practice the middle one. This allows them a lot more time to work on their technique, history of music and performance (amongst other things).

Something my classically trained friend once told me has always quite intrigued me. He finds jazz music listenable, but boring. If I paraphrase him correctly, I think he implied that he prefers actual pieces; when I asked him about soloes or interludes, be it intricate or lyrical, he pointed out that you get to hear amazingly complex and beautiful 'soloes' and lyrical phrases in classical music, above and beyond a great deal of improvised music.

Quite an interesting viewpoint to have! Although I think he missed out the 'fun' part in improvising and having no idea where it's going when you're watching. That is something I love about music in general, specifically improvised though as you know it's being made up on the spot (more or less )

Mark

[cheddatom]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='155684' date='Mar 12 2008, 12:53 AM']I think the one thing that has been consistently overlooked here is that the whole point of good technical facility is to free your playing so that emotion and creativity are [i]more[/i] accessible, it has been mentioned earlier but nobody seems to take it on board, in jazz creativity is paramount.[/quote]

I'm technically not very good, but I have no problem at all expressing myself on my bass. I can play anything I want. The only time I want to improve is when my guitarist comes up with something I can't play fast enough with my fingers, but don't want a pick sound for.

Is playing these incredibly fast and complicated improvisations really an expression of the self?

My guitarist spent a long time learning to play some nuno solos, and he uses that technique in his improvisation, but it's basically just to show off.

I suppose I don't listen to enough modern jazz to really know the answer to my question, so sorry if that last comment seemed presumptive.

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='155775' date='Mar 12 2008, 09:35 AM']I'm technically not very good, but I have no problem at all expressing myself on my bass. I can play anything I want. The only time I want to improve is when my guitarist comes up with something I can't play fast enough with my fingers, but don't want a pick sound for.

Is playing these incredibly fast and complicated improvisations really an expression of the self?

My guitarist spent a long time learning to play some nuno solos, and he uses that technique in his improvisation, but it's basically just to show off.

I suppose I don't listen to enough modern jazz to really know the answer to my question, so sorry if that last comment seemed presumptive.[/quote]

What I didn't say is that a lack of technique will prevent you expressing yourself, and neither do I think that, so to me your question answers itself.
There is a huge difference between copying someone elses solos and having global harmonic awareness to be able to construct your own on the spot.
Whether you listen to modern jazz will make not a jot of difference to anything, Bach and many of the composers of and around his time were improvisors. Last night I did a gig with an eight piece band doing original material, we spent the previous week rehearsing to create our parts as the songwriter gave us frames of the songs. Last Saturday I did a hotel gig in Manchester playing songs from the 20s and 30s playing largely two feels but all improvised to some extent.
And thats just the last week. None of it modern jazz. I've spent nearly 20 years doing this, a tiny proportion of the time in modern jazz groups. And as I said before I enjoy, indeed [i]love[/i] it all.