Bass Guitar Mag Janek Gwidzala

[cheddatom]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='155981' date='Mar 12 2008, 02:04 PM']you need to know what the boundaries are before you have a chance of breaking them[/quote]

That's not true! It's just you wouldn't know that you've broken them.

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='155985' date='Mar 12 2008, 02:07 PM']That's not true! It's just you wouldn't know that you've broken them.[/quote]
then you wouldn't be breaking boundaries IMO you would in a musical sense be breaking wind IMO

Tom, I like your discourse in many areas as I've said to you before.
I think on this issue you want to call yourself 'any good' without accepting the normal checks and balances of what [i]is[/i] 'any good'
I am not going to go to a surgeon because of his vibe, I will go to him cos he's 'any good' with a scalpel
sadly in music sh*t musicians get jobs because of their haircuts (or some other nonsense) and then the people that like their haircuts spend huge amounts of energy constructing arguments as to why they want to justifiably call them 'the best' when they should just settle for liking them, which is fine.
Wheras in the world of the professional musician, guys get the gig because thay can produce the goods, well most of the time. But then there are surgeons who have cut off the wrong limb.
Ain't life great

Edited March 12, 2008 by jakesbass

[Bilbo]

I have to agree that I think the not learning theory to maintain creativity argument is moribund. It is nothing more that a justification that allows individuals to watching more tv without feeling guilty. Of course uneducated polayers are capable of being creative - its part of the human condition. But, if you give 1,000 monkies typewriters....

Sorry, that was facetious but I accept that many uneducated players have done some great things but relying on pure inspiration without perspiration is like relying on a lottery win to feed yourself - you may be lucky but I wouldn't want to rely on it.

In simple terms, to suggest that not doing something improves your playing is, in my view, anathema.

[queenofthedepths]

[quote name='dlloyd' post='155956' date='Mar 12 2008, 01:35 PM']Learning theory in isolation of ear training is essentially worthless[/quote]

Not a fan of Beethoven then?

[quote name='bassbloke' post='155974' date='Mar 12 2008, 01:58 PM'][quote name='cheddatom' post='155775' date='Mar 12 2008, 09:35 AM']
I'm technically not very good, but I have no problem at all expressing myself on my bass. I can play anything I want. The only time I want to improve is when my guitarist comes up with something I can't play fast enough with my fingers, but don't want a pick sound for.[/quote]
It's one thing to contradict yourself across multiple posts in a thread, but to contradict yourself twice in the same thread just shows that, as with previous threads, you have nothing particularly constructive to contribute and are just being contrary for the sake of it.
[/quote]

Quite a bit harsh, but fair point
Tom, what you're saying is that you're technically inept, but then you contradict that by saying that you can play anything you want... Then you contradict yourself again by saying that sometimes you feel the need to improve, so clearly you CAN'T play anything you want
You seem to be equating technical ability with knowledge of theory, when studying theory is just a way to become technically good! There are other ways, such as your own (although you've admitted that this isn't sufficient, because sometimes you can't play fast enough) - studying theory is the accepted norm, as it is the result of hundreds of years of the best musos working on it... of course for some people (many of whom are to some extent too lazy or "ergonomic" to learn something before they've found a use for it - no offence mate, but I am talking about you here! Unless you have another reason to shirk theory that you haven't explained to us? We're all lazy in some ways though so don't see it as a bad thing), theory is NOT the best way to learn; educational psychologists have proven that we all have a unique way of learning things, but studying theory is most appropriate for most musicians

[quote name='cheddatom' post='155985' date='Mar 12 2008, 02:07 PM'][quote name='jakesbass' post='155981' date='Mar 12 2008, 02:04 PM']
you need to know what the boundaries are before you have a chance of breaking them[/quote]
That's not true! It's just you wouldn't know that you've broken them.
[/quote]

You may well think you're breaking boundaries, but maybe you're just playing something which can be simply explained by theory and is not far from something quite commonplace, but you don't recognise it?

Edited March 12, 2008 by queenofthedepths

[Bilbo]

I guess the worst thing is technique without knowledge of theory - Yngwie J Malmsteen!

[cheddatom]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='155987' date='Mar 12 2008, 02:12 PM']then you wouldn't be breaking boundaries IMO you would in a musical sense be breaking wind IMO[/quote]

Heh, well it depends what your initial motivations are. If you've been listening to similar music all your life, and then you pick up a bass and decide to never play anything like that, and to just play what you like the sound of, you could accidentally break the boundaries as seen by others. You might accidentally stumble accross jazz, or blues, or any other genre that has been done before. It would be very unlikely for your playing to sound conventional to other bassists though.

[queenofthedepths]

[quote name='dlloyd' post='156006' date='Mar 12 2008, 02:28 PM']You're joking, right?[/quote]
Ahaha, I have edited my post slightly

[cheddatom]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='155993' date='Mar 12 2008, 02:19 PM']I have to agree that I think the not learning theory to maintain creativity argument is moribund. It is nothing more that a justification that allows individuals to watching more tv without feeling guilty. Of course uneducated polayers are capable of being creative - its part of the human condition. But, if you give 1,000 monkies typewriters....

Sorry, that was facetious but I accept that many uneducated players have done some great things but relying on pure inspiration without perspiration is like relying on a lottery win to feed yourself - you may be lucky but I wouldn't want to rely on it.

In simple terms, to suggest that not doing something improves your playing is, in my view, anathema.[/quote]

.....I don't think that was really facetious, I actually said that to myself at some point while trying to construct a post!

I never said you wouldn't need any perspiration! I'm just wondering out loud if a player who knew no theory could be as good as a player who knows all theory, but then I have kind of blurred the lines between theory and technique in my head, as queenofthedepths pointed out.

I suppose I started out thinking "you can be a great player without being technical", which is obvious. Then I meant to say that in my opinion a "less technical" player is a better player. Then people were saying that if you are capable of very technical playing, but don't actually use it, you will be better at playing less technical stuff. I disagree with that, in that someone who decides to do so could become the worlds best player of simple basslines, and come accross better (to me) than a very technical player, just by practicing his simple basslines.

Somewhere along the line I got confused and started talking about theory as well. I was suggesting that maybe you don't need to know any more music theory than what you can learn by playing your instrument, and playing with other people, and that maybe this would lead to an unconventional style of playing.

Teaching people to play within convention will be far quicker using the conventions, obviously. Maybe the conventions of modern music technique and theory encompass everything that's possible within music, but I would like to think not. I would like to know what would happen if you gave a child a bass, and an amp, and left them completely alone with it.

Obviously people have lessons for a reason, but does this lead to less variety in music?



Jakesbass - Is there such thing as a sh*t artist? Does being a musician make you able to judge who is a good and who is a "sh*t musician"? How do you judge whether a musician is good or not? It's all subjective isn't it?



If i can put it this way - I've recently started playing the drums in a band. I have always listened to drum beats since being a kid, and i've always had them in my head. When I first had a go on a drum kit, I couldn't play what I wanted to, and it really frustrated me. My right hand wouldn't detach from the movement of my right foot! So, I went home and worked on getting my limbs going independantly, just by tapping my fingers and feet etc. That was when I was 15, and since then I've played the drums on about 10 occasions, for about 30 max. Now i'm 23, i've started seriously drumming in a band, and it's really easy. I know what beats I want to play, and I can play them. I have trouble with my stamina, but that's a physical thing. I know that i'm holding my sticks like an idiot, and that I have poor technique in the eyes of most conventional drummers (because i've been told, and seen my video compared to pros) but I don't care, because I get the job done, and i'm constantly improving. I can go and practice the drums for hours on end now, "improvising" i.e. playing whatever comes into my head, and when something's too fast, or when my legs are tired, I know that's an area for improvement and I can work on it.

Should I be getting lessons, or reading Drummer Magazine (or whatever) or looking at techniques online etc etc? I feel that there's more chance of me having a unique style of drumming if I steer clear of all of these conventions.

Is this stupid?

[mcgraham]

[quote]I feel that there's more chance of me having a unique style of drumming if I steer clear of all of these conventions.[/quote]

I think that you may be forgetting about vision. I have assimilated many very different styles of music, styles of playing, theory, different instruments etc (still not done yet, more more!) however what makes me sound completely different (in my own stuff and improv, my 'voice') is the desire and vision to be different. Not as a really conscious thing, I'm just looking to learn from others, not to [i]be[/i] others.

I do get what you mean now, I see we may have got wires crossed at some point and I see what you mean. But I'd like to encourage you to not worry about being individual; if you're playing what you hear in your head and are not afraid to play something that sounds wrong in pursuit of what you think sounds right (or at least good ) then it will all come together and you will bear much fruit. That's my opinion bud.

Mark

[Bilbo]

The problem with finding your true path as a musician is recognising the fact that you are already on it.

If you practise every lick, trick and song of your favorite musician, and nothing else, you will still not sound like him/her. You can' t help it - so being an individual is not the issue.

But, using the drum analogy, you can get quite credible without 'learning' anything but I bet you any money your playing will fill up with cliches very quickly whether you like it or not because the music you LISTEN to will be cliche-ridden. We are the sum total of our experiences and those experiences aren't only our practice schedule; it is also our listening. So unless you listen to original (i.e. not genre specific) music, you will inevitably fall into the boom chuck boom chuck school of drumming and sound very unispired. You may have a whale of a time but the listeners won't hear anything worth talking abou!

I also agree that technical players are not always the best - I think, for instance, that Jeff Berlin, despite his astonishing technique, lacks the genre specific skills to play anything other than what he does. Despite his endless efforts to the contrary, he has not got a massive list of sessions to his name because can't nail grooves idiomatically correctly like someone like Lee Sklar, who is a lesser player in terms of superficial dexterity but grooves like a mofo.

Technique is not everything but it helps.

Edited March 12, 2008 by bilbo230763

[queenofthedepths]

The trouble with "originality" is that it gives an advantage to people who were lucky enough to be born earlier - if I played like Jaco 40 years ago, people would have been impressed and when Jaco came along he'd have been nothing, but if I play the same bass lines now, it's not "original" because it's already been done... Musical merit is irrelevant to the timeline, but originality is awarded to whoever gets there first, so a better word is "innovation", which gives modern musicians the advantage of being able to draw on what's gone before and take it a step further - if you disregard that advantage completely and just "play" with no previous knowledge of how the instrument is intended to be used, what you're doing may well be original, but it may well be, as Jake said, just breaking wind! You have to know how to play your instrument, and if you're going to accept any advice at all on how to play ("Try this; it's a bass guitar and will sound better than humming and setting off alarm clocks at random"), you may as well accept all that's available - the only way we're gonna get anywhere (unless by sheer chance you're very very lucky) is by standing on the shoulders of giants
However, there is a point where studying theory and practising is a waste of time... for you, Rex Brown and whoever else, not much practise at all is necessary; for Janek Gwizdala and various other virtuosos, practising 10 hours a day has to take priority over watching TV or whatever else you want to do in the rest of your free time
The one other thing I will confidently say is this: practising technique, learning theory and even copying Nuno's solos will not hinder your creativity; poor taste and failure to do the above WILL

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='156077' date='Mar 12 2008, 03:30 PM']Jakesbass - Is there such thing as a sh*t artist? Does being a musician make you able to judge who is a good and who is a "sh*t musician"? How do you judge whether a musician is good or not? It's all subjective isn't it?[/quote]
I'm going to stick my neck out and say yes, since I can only utilise my own subjectivity to comment on what I consider sh*t or brilliant and anywhere inbetween.
We live in an age where we have to pussy foot around for fear of upsetting the sensibilities of one person or another. Adds up to homogeny to me and I'd rather have a bit of rough and tumble, that's why I often enjoy BigBeefChief posts. He says it and be damned and lives up to it. Even when (as I often do) I disagree with him.

Edited March 12, 2008 by jakesbass

[Bilbo]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='156110' date='Mar 12 2008, 03:57 PM']We live in an age where we have to pussy foot around for fear of upsetting the sensibilities of one person or another.[/quote]

Do we? I must be missing something, snot box!!!

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='156136' date='Mar 12 2008, 04:08 PM']Do we? I must be missing something, snot box!!! [/quote]
now you're talking. Arse beard

Edited March 12, 2008 by jakesbass

[bigd1]

We all have seen and listened to musicians who claim to have no knowledge when it comes to theory.
Pick up a musical instrument and start to make noises with it, you will find, if you keep trying you will probably start to string together sounds you like, stuff starts to sound good. But by the same method some will not sound so good. This is basic music theory.
I started playing brass as my first instrument (Tuba). I have been a musician for over 30yrs. I find most musicians who learn by ear seem to think if they learn any theory it will in some way kill there ability to play what the hear.
In my experience all good musicians play by ear, it's impossible not to. The basic thing we want to do when we first start to play an instrument is to make a noise. Although when I am teaching I find one of the things people sometimes forget to do when playing is just that listen to what is happening around them. Am I to loud/not loud enough, does this fit the music we are playing, am I in tune etc.
These things apply whether you play reading dots or not, and all come under music theory.
Jazz musicians base a solo on scales (as in all music), it is how they manipulate the given scale that makes it improvised (the soloists style), it's the same with a rock solo although using different scales.
However you play music be it by ear or from printed music I don't believe one is better than the other (I've never believed that) but I do think they can If you want to improve as a musician you need both.
Being able to read and write music helps you under stand what are hearing, share you ideas with other musicians & be able to play any music in print with all the correct notes, but you may need to hear it to help with style.
Playing by ear, if you hear it you can probably play it , but not always.
The argument as to what is best by ear or learn music theory will go on forever, and never come to a full agreement.
I think a mix of both is best and when you look properly at either method they do both use parts of each other with out trying.

BIGd

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='bigd1' post='156165' date='Mar 12 2008, 04:29 PM']We all have seen and listened to musicians who claim to have no knowledge when it comes to theory.
Pick up a musical instrument and start to make noises with it, you will find, if you keep trying you will probably start to string together sounds you like, stuff starts to sound good. But by the same method some will not sound so good. This is basic music theory.
I started playing brass as my first instrument (Tuba). I have been a musician for over 30yrs. I find most musicians who learn by ear seem to think if they learn any theory it will in some way kill there ability to play what the hear.
In my experience all good musicians play by ear, it's impossible not to. The basic thing we want to do when we first start to play an instrument is to make a noise. Although when I am teaching I find one of the things people sometimes forget to do when playing is just that listen to what is happening around them. Am I to loud/not loud enough, does this fit the music we are playing, am I in tune etc.
These things apply whether you play reading dots or not, and all come under music theory.
Jazz musicians base a solo on scales (as in all music), it is how they manipulate the given scale that makes it improvised (the soloists style), it's the same with a rock solo although using different scales.
However you play music be it by ear or from printed music I don't believe one is better than the other (I've never believed that) but I do think they can If you want to improve as a musician you need both.
Being able to read and write music helps you under stand what are hearing, share you ideas with other musicians & be able to play any music in print with all the correct notes, but you may need to hear it to help with style.
Playing by ear, if you hear it you can probably play it , but not always.
The argument as to what is best by ear or learn music theory will go on forever, and never come to a full agreement.
I think a mix of both is best and when you look properly at either method they do both use parts of each other with out trying.

BIGd[/quote]
I think that's well said

Edited March 12, 2008 by jakesbass

[queenofthedepths]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='156136' date='Mar 12 2008, 04:08 PM']Do we? I must be missing something, snot box!!! [/quote]


[quote name='jakesbass' post='156160' date='Mar 12 2008, 04:25 PM']now you're talking. Arse beard [/quote]
Oh dear oh dear! Who let the jazz cats on the Internet?

[Bilbo]

They're juss makin' it up as they go along....

[mcgraham]

[quote]Although when I am teaching I find one of the things people sometimes forget to do when playing is just that listen to what is happening around them[/quote]

That is probably one of my biggest peeves when playing with others. Not so much the egotistical ones, but the ones who just don't listen. I know we can all be guilty of not listening for one reason or another at times, but it seems there's a larger and larger number of musicians (or maybe I'm just encountering more and more of them) that seem unable to hear the piece that's being played and decide what they need to do. Even fewer seem capable of leading a group and making a decision on what others in the group they are supposed to be leading need to do.

Again, comes down to vision, and I guess (from my limited knowledge in this area) production skills, to know what you want something to sound like, to have a direction and a vision for each piece you (with or without a group) are performing.

Classically trained musicians are PARTICULARY guilty of this. Though often they never have to be too wary about fitting in with others, if you're playing from an ensemble (?) piece, I can understand you'd take it for granted that everyone else is playing what they are supposed to be. Unfortunately that attitude doesn't carry over too well all the time in live work.

Mark

[cheddatom]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='156110' date='Mar 12 2008, 03:57 PM']I'm going to stick my neck out and say yes, since I can only utilise my own subjectivity to comment on what I consider sh*t or brilliant and anywhere inbetween.
We live in an age where we have to pussy foot around for fear of upsetting the sensibilities of one person or another. Adds up to homogeny to me and I'd rather have a bit of rough and tumble, that's why I often enjoy BigBeefChief posts. He says it and be damned and lives up to it. Even when (as I often do) I disagree with him.[/quote]

OK, but you are building subjectivity into your answer. Of course some of us will think one bass player is sh*t and another sh*t-hot. We all have different opinions. If this is the case then how is it possible to become better, other than within your own subjectivity? For example, I might have a friend who loves really sloppyily played basslines with plenty of bum notes. In my opinion, i'd have to get worse to get better in his opinion.

Bearing all that in mind, how is it possible to say "learning music theory makes you a better bass player"?

I admit i'm being a bit of a tw@ now, but as I said to you before, i'm an argumentative f*cker

[quote name='jakesbass' post='156171' date='Mar 12 2008, 04:34 PM']I think that's well said[/quote]
+1 that was a great post BigD

There have been loads of really good posts in the discussion, and I have been changing my mind all day long! I think Bilbo struck home when he said

"We are the sum total of our experiences and those experiences aren't only our practice schedule; it is also our listening."

Which is totally true. If you take what I was saying earlier, and apply listening instead of practicing techniques/learning theory then it's entirely impossible for anyone who's ever listened to music to create something as original/unconventional as I was talking about.

I'll see how my drumming goes, but (as I already have an RSI in my wrist) I may well buy a couple of lessons.

[mcgraham]

[quote]There have been loads of really good posts in the discussion[/quote]

Agreed! I've really really enjoyed (the latter half of ) this discussion. This is the sort of thing I really enjoy.

Mark

[queenofthedepths]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='156188' date='Mar 12 2008, 04:57 PM']OK, but you are building subjectivity into your answer. Of course some of us will think one bass player is sh*t and another sh*t-hot. We all have different opinions. If this is the case then how is it possible to become better, other than within your own subjectivity? For example, I might have a friend who loves really sloppyily played basslines with plenty of bum notes. In my opinion, i'd have to get worse to get better in his opinion.

Bearing all that in mind, how is it possible to say "learning music theory makes you a better bass player"?

I admit i'm being a bit of a tw@ now, but as I said to you before, i'm an argumentative f*cker [/quote]
I know you're not keen on studying theory, but you could learn a lot from Hume and Kant! Since I've been (quite accurately) told on this forum that 18th century texts on aesthetics aren't lovely material ([url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=9371&pid=154875&st=20&#entry154875"]see this quote if you wanna know why[/url]), allow me to sum up the essence of the relevant parts of Hume's "Of the Standard of Taste" and Kant's "Critique of Judgement"
Hume: beauty (or in this case musical excellence) can be determined by educated men who have refined taste i.e. Jake
Kant: a judgement of beauty is one which demands universal assent - if your friend genuinely likes bass lines which normally are described as poor, he should insist upon everyone else's agreement

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='156188' date='Mar 12 2008, 04:57 PM']If this is the case then how is it possible to become better, other than within your own subjectivity? s.[/quote]

We all know when we are moved by music or a musician.

so go for greater degrees thereof

Edited March 12, 2008 by jakesbass

[7string]

[quote name='queenofthedepths' post='156106' date='Mar 12 2008, 03:56 PM']However, there is a point where studying theory and practising is a waste of time... for you, Rex Brown and whoever else, not much practise at all is necessary; for Janek Gwizdala and various other virtuosos, practising 10 hours a day has to take priority over watching TV or whatever else you want to do in the rest of your free time
The one other thing I will confidently say is this: practising technique, learning theory and even copying Nuno's solos will not hinder your creativity; poor taste and failure to do the above WILL[/quote]

I don't think that you can be genre-specific here. Can we say bassists from heavy groups, such as Rex Brown, don't put in just as much time as our beloved Janek ??

There are virtuoso bassists in every genre, not just jazz.

[bass_ferret]

Kinda gave up on all this TBH.

The thing is, learning theory and practicing lots will make you a better player, better able to work with others of a similar level of theory and practice. Whether you want/need/can be arsed to work on theory and practice is up to you, just dont try and justify your lack of effort, theory and practie with bs.