Bass Guitar Mag Janek Gwidzala

[Doddy]

I agree with you for the most part. You don't need to be the greatest technichian in the world,but if you want to play a petricular phrase and you can't physically do it,you obviously need to work on the technical side of things.That's where columns by players like Janek are important.

For what it's worth,I've practised exercises like these for upto 8-10 hours a day,and currently play mostly cover and jazz gigs. I feel that all of the technique that I personally studied has made it a whole lot easier for me to do the gigs I do,as I don't have to worry whether or not I can physically pull off certain things.

That's just me though.

[Jase]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='152472' date='Mar 6 2008, 04:18 PM']Fair point, and to some degree I agree that having a greater ability and more knowledge isn't a bad thing.

However, what I don't like is the association between technical ability with being a great bass player/musician. Agreed, you need to have the ability to transfer whats "inside" to your audience, but you don't need to be the world greatest technician. If I spent 10 hours a day practicing, I'd be pretty good technician. I'd still be (by my definition) a lousy musician.

BGM loves to put these people on a pedestal, lording them for playing with such "greats" as "Erki Boneflap", "Milton Stonebake" and the "Milk Lake Quartet". ie Music for Musos (the only people who appreciate their technical ability and can ignore the fact that it actually sounds pretty crap).

Gwidzala may make a living by being a very good player but I'd rather listen to/ be inspired/taught by the bloke who wrote "Peaches".[/quote]


Fair enough, if you think something sounds crap, if you're calling something crap you have to have be a reason why you think it's crap, apart from the fact that it's played by someone who has advanced ability, can't just call something crap for that reason!

[BigBeefChief]

OK, it sounds crap to me. But personally I find that technical ability and making music I enjoy are often poles apart. This could be due to great technicians wanting to show off their ability and therefore moving away from those great, simple bass hooks that I love. Or it could be that those that aren't naturally musical rely overly on technique. Or they might just have different tastes to me. Who knows??

[bigd1]

One thing I think that is missing in a lot of playing and music in general at the moment is music. I know that sounds odd but music is not a set of technical of exercises strung together.
Technique is about developing your skill with your chosen instrument, music is about performing with your chosen instrument, a big difference.
How many people do you see at things like Bass Day on the trade stands playing a million notes miles per hour, but can the same people play melodic line, or make what they are playing sing.
When I first started to play music, some advice given to from an older musician was "you can tell it's good if you are still singing it on the way home".
Using Bass Day as the example to work from, how many of the tech performances can you sing or even remember ?
Now I'm not a Jeff Berlin fan but bet you remember what he did on the day and Steve Williams stuff as well.
I don't believe a 10 hour practice would improve your playing nor your technique. As most teachers will tell you little and often pays far more that trying to force any technique.

[Jase]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='152504' date='Mar 6 2008, 05:02 PM']OK, it sounds crap to me. But personally I find that technical ability and making music I enjoy are often poles apart. This could be due to great technicians wanting to show off their ability and therefore moving away from those great, simple bass hooks that I love. Or it could be that those that aren't naturally musical rely overly on technique. Or they might just have different tastes to me. Who knows??[/quote]


Ok

Sometimes creating a line that is simple and addictive is just as hard as perfecting a technique, I think the key is applying your technique in a way that it can be understood by many rather than a few, I love a good groove, a simple part or a complimentary part, mind you I'm a bit partial to some ridiculously unplayable stuff too

[birdy]

[quote name='bigd1' post='152505' date='Mar 6 2008, 05:03 PM']I don't believe a 10 hour practice would improve your playing nor your technique. As most teachers will tell you little and often pays far more that trying to force any technique.[/quote]

Disagree with this. If you consistently play for 10 hours a day you will improve more than playing little and often in my opinion. To suddenly start playing ten hours a day or doing as a one off probably would not be beneficial at all though.

The better you can play technically will not hinder any creation of music that you wish to make whether it be punk or jazz that you wish to play. You can still write punk but have more options the better player you are. I agree that it should be about music as the end result but just because you do not like the particular end result thats accomplished by Janek does not make it any less valid.

In martial arts you often train at a lot higher level and do a lot of techniques that you would never use on the street maybe because if you got them wrong you would be in big trouble as an example. This is so that the basic simplistic things that you may need to do to survive will be easier because of the extra training that you have done. I can equate this to music too. I think if you want to chug out 8th notes all night someone who has practised scales with a metronome for 10 hours a day will do this better than if they had just noodled around for 20 minutes a day.

You may of course disagree!!

Steve

[Jase]

[quote name='birdy' post='152518' date='Mar 6 2008, 05:21 PM']Disagree with this. If you consistently play for 10 hours a day you will improve more than playing little and often in my opinion. To suddenly start playing ten hours a day or doing as a one off probably would not be beneficial at all though.

The better you can play technically will not hinder any creation of music that you wish to make whether it be punk or jazz that you wish to play. You can still write punk but have more options the better player you are. I agree that it should be about music as the end result but just because you do not like the particular end result thats accomplished by Janek does not make it any less valid.

In martial arts you often train at a lot higher level and do a lot of techniques that you would never use on the street maybe because if you got them wrong you would be in big trouble as an example. This is so that the basic simplistic things that you may need to do to survive will be easier because of the extra training that you have done. I can equate this to music too. I think if you want to chug out 8th notes all night someone who has practised scales with a metronome for 10 hours a day will do this better than if they had just noodled around for 20 minutes a day.

You may of course disagree!!

Steve[/quote]

I agree, "noodling" I find is a waste of time for me, Got to put some sort of serious practice in. I find it hard work if I don't put practice in but I do know a drummer who never seems to practice and is really on top of his stuff....mad!

[queenofthedepths]

+1 Playing faster, more complicated technical stuff loosens up my fingers and makes it that much easier to play the simple, cool-sounding grooves that people actually want to listen to...

[BigBeefChief]

I actually think that technical ability may hinder creativity. The majority of my favourite musicians are self taught or have little in the way of classical education. Maybe there's a certain magic created by trying to do a lot with the little that you've got?

Maybe if you can't impress with technical ability, then you need to think of something else?

[birdy]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='152534' date='Mar 6 2008, 05:38 PM']I actually think that technical ability may hinder creativity. The majority of my favourite musicians are self taught or have little in the way of classical education. Maybe there's a certain magic created by trying to do a lot with the little that you've got?

Maybe if you can't impress with technical ability, then you need to think of something else?[/quote]

To be fair thats an interesting concept that I can't really argue with.

[Jase]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='152534' date='Mar 6 2008, 05:38 PM']I actually think that technical ability may hinder creativity. The majority of my favourite musicians are self taught or have little in the way of classical education. Maybe there's a certain magic created by trying to do a lot with the little that you've got?

Maybe if you can't impress with technical ability, then you need to think of something else?[/quote]


I dunno, you still have to acknowledge that there is some technique involved most styles, self taught or not but I agree there can be some sort of unique magic when some one does it there way.

Out of interest BBC who are your fave musicians?

[mcgraham]

[quote]But personally I find that technical ability and making music I enjoy are often poles apart[/quote]

Totally disagree with you. Technical ability (i.e. proficiency) does not mean that whatever level you are at then you ALWAYS max out your ability i.e. you play 2000npm in 13/8 over a constantly shifting key centre and play only outside notes because you can; although I will concede that a number of musicians feel the need to throw out everything they've got all the time.

What technical ability does mean is that you CAN play the above, or whatever level you are at. I work very hard on my technique so that I never find things (or rather mitigate the number of things) that I am not technically able to do at a large range of tempos, time signatures, keys, styles, feels... you name it.

Technical ability is intended to open up the road to musical expression, not to block it off. I do see your point, or at least what you've been driving at, however I willingly recognise that if one is happy with where one is at, or at least partially satisfied with their level of musical ability and the outlet for that ability, then it would make sense why they would see little reason or need to improve or try or seek out new things that they cannot do.

Mark

[queenofthedepths]

I don't seriously believe that any technically capable musician who can't write inspiring music would be any more creative without the technical ability! Creativity is something you either have or don't have - technical ability is a useful set of tools that allow you to express yourself on bass better; unless there's nothing in your head worth expressing in the first place, improving your ability to play can't actually make you WORSE at writing music
However, since a great many players are somewhat lacking in technical ability (nobody's perfect), we can perversely admire those who have the chops we can only aspire to... there's lots of great music that IS technically very difficult, and if you can write that kind of music in your head, what good is it if you can't play it?
Sorry if I've not expressed myself too clearly (maybe I need to practise my writing skills) - what I'm trying to say is that there has to be a balance between creativity and technical ability - one is useless without the other! Except that, as has been noted, technically adept players can show off to a small audience of musos, whereas brilliant composers who can't get their ideas from their head to the instrument are completely useless

[BigBeefChief]

Fair enough. Its interesting to see the range of views surrounding this.

Moving slightly closer to the original topic, I think that academic bass excercises are most useful for people who would happily work as a proffesional session musician (I'd assume the majority on this site??). Personally, I'd rather stick pins in my eyes than go down that route. My view is that if your good enough to go pro, be original, be yourself, have some fun. Don't waste it playing in overly technical supergroups that no one apart from musicians can understand.

BGM loves to talk about being a working session musician like its the Holy Grail. Personaly, I couldn't give a sh*t! I'd rather be Nikki Sixx than Janek Gwidzala!


(and before you ask, no I'm not a big Motley Crue fan - he just sprang to mind when thinking about non-academic bass players!)

[Steve A]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='152267' date='Mar 6 2008, 11:12 AM']My view is that styles develop naturally through playing the bass lines of your idols, not through learning in a classroom.[/quote]


If you read Janek's posts on talkbass.com you'll find him talk and talk and talk about the value of transcribing, i.e. 'developing naturally through playing the bass lines of your idols'. He describes this as the best way to learn the language of music. He's not just talking about jazz or one particular style either. He mentions how he transcribes from all genres of music that appeal to him and all of those genres affect his own playing and help to create his own voice.

Janek also mentioned, in response to someone's question about 'speed' that he played scales and exercises at very slow to very fast tempos in order to develop his facility to be able to perform in whatever musical situation he might encounter. He has encountered those situations in his career and is able to work at that level with those musicians.

I had a private lesson with Janek last summer and to have him play two feet away from me was breathtaking. Personally as I've got older I've lost interest in 'technique' players. By that I mean players who are all technique but whose ideas don't move me, Some of the greatest bassplayers play with non standard technique (if there is such a thing) and create moving music. But being up close to Janek when he played bass... it was all about being uninhibited and free to create MUSIC, unhindered by poor physical technique or lack of harmonic knowledge/melodic sense or imagination.

For me it's a combination of transcribing music you like alongside exercises which make you familiar with your instrument. That way you understand what you transcribe and are able to create your own thing and develop your own voice.

[url="http://www.talkbass.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=155"]http://www.talkbass.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=155[/url]

Edited March 6, 2008 by funkmunky

[BigBeefChief]

And while you were listening to him, did he "create" anything that could be appreciated by a non-bass player?

[Mike]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='152534' date='Mar 6 2008, 05:38 PM']I actually think that technical ability may hinder creativity. The majority of my favourite musicians are self taught or have little in the way of classical education. Maybe there's a certain magic created by trying to do a lot with the little that you've got?

Maybe if you can't impress with technical ability, then you need to think of something else?[/quote]


Someone like Paul McCartney? Great composer but didn't have a clue about theory!

[BigBeefChief]

Perfect example.

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='152580' date='Mar 6 2008, 06:30 PM']And while you were listening to him, did he "create" anything that could be appreciated by a non-bass player?[/quote]
Just be sure BBC, you're not attempting to invalidate the group you infer are the only ones who [i]would[/i] appreciate as, for the sake of definition, a lesser group of mortals are you? I would expect more of you than that. Surely with your grasp of reason you can allow said group to exist on earth alongside Lemmy lovers like yourself?
Are you offended by the existence of such a type? Do you think less of individuals because they have a technical bent about their chosen topic, hobby etc?
I would like to know where you stand on these points.
Jake

[BigRedX]

[quote name='queenofthedepths' post='152556' date='Mar 6 2008, 06:09 PM']... improving your ability to play can't actually make you WORSE at writing music[/quote]

Actually in my experience it can. I'm sure that nearly all of us have been guilty at some point of being determined to shoehorn our latest 'trick' into whatever song we're currently working on whether it really needs it or not.

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='BigRedX' post='152599' date='Mar 6 2008, 07:05 PM']Actually in my experience it can. I'm sure that nearly all of us have been guilty at some point of being determined to shoehorn our latest 'trick' into whatever song we're currently working on whether it really needs it or not.[/quote]
that doesn't mean you are a worse player because of what you practise it means that you have poor musical judgement, different things IMO. (not meant to sound that personal, you as general I mean)

[BigRedX]

Exactly! Just because you can doesn't mean that you should.

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='BigRedX' post='152608' date='Mar 6 2008, 07:14 PM']Exactly! Just because you can doesn't mean that you should.[/quote]
agreed, but you implied that having ability somehow served as a bar to having good judgement/writing/creating

[BigRedX]

What I was trying to say was that there is a natural inclination to show off ability often at the expense of taste. I see it all the time not only in music but all in my day job graphic design.

[BigBeefChief]

Jake,

Having read through my reply to Funkmonkey, my post does sound a little facetious. It wasn't intended. I was trying to establish if hearing him play was breathtaking to a bass player, or breath taking in general. Funkmonkey states that it was about the ability to have total musical freedom, unhindered by poor technique. I question if this creativity and musical freedom would be so apparent to those who don't study bass and, for want of a better phrase, to those who don't appreciate how difficult it is!

I suppose there's not an answer. As a bass player its difficult to be subjective. Do you enjoy a piece because its musical or because you appreciate the skill involved? Or maybe a bit of both? Maybe its subconscious?

I, for whatever reason, tend not to enjoy overtly technical playing. I see less value in studying it than most. I think that a lot of people study it for the wrong reasons. But its up to them. If you like listening to that stuff, great. I'm more than happy for you to exist on the same planet as me. Just don't play Jazz and don't be the front man of Jamiroquai.

Edited March 6, 2008 by BigBeefChief