Nice long TC RH45 and Orange Terror 500 reviews in July's Bass Gear magazine.

[dave_bass5]

The TC review also includes the RS210 and RS212 cabs, while the Orange review includes the SP210 and SP212 cabs.

Just a FYI.

[Musicman20]

Just read that last night. Very interesting! No idea how TC's APM works, but it must be doing its job because the RH450 is super super powerful and loud.

[dave_bass5]

yeah, it sounds like its a very good head.
Im now very tempted to look at getting one over a F500.

[stevie]

Yes, I read the TC review this morning. It probably raises more questions than it answers. How many watts? And I wish I hadn't seen what they have done to the low-end frequency response, which explains the difference I heard when I compared mine to my Trace Elliot head.

Despite being listed as 10 or 11 ohms or so in the technical specs, the speakers look just like normal 8-ohm ones as far as one can tell from the graphs. Shame they didn't test the amp down to 2 ohms.

Nicely done review though.

[Musicman20]

[quote name='dave_bass5' post='1325260' date='Aug 3 2011, 09:48 AM']yeah, it sounds like its a very good head.
Im now very tempted to look at getting one over a F500.[/quote]

I must admit, the current lower prices on the RH450 are excellent. Total bargain!

[alexclaber]

Interesting stuff. Based on those impedance plots the only logical conclusion to come to is that the RH450 and RH750 are both comfortable down to 2.7 ohms (i.e. three 8 ohm cabs or one 4 ohm and one 8 ohm, in parallel). Disappointed by their specsmanship - I had assumed that the RH450 was a real 450W and the APM made it feel like ~800W. Still, lots of happy customers prove it works but it's a shame they're playing those games...

On the other hand I'm impressed with Orange Terror Bass's bench performance (glad to see the 4/8 ohm switch actually works!) whilst the SP cabs measure out pretty much exactly how I thought they would based on the design and customer feedback (sensitivity is very low and midrange uneven).

[markstuk]

Hi Alex,

Not seen the article - what was the "specmanship" TC are playing with the RH450?

Cheers


Mark

[quote name='alexclaber' post='1325395' date='Aug 3 2011, 11:11 AM']Interesting stuff. Based on those impedance plots the only logical conclusion to come to is that the RH450 and RH750 are both comfortable down to 2.7 ohms (i.e. three 8 ohm cabs or one 4 ohm and one 8 ohm, in parallel). Disappointed by their specsmanship - I had assumed that the RH450 was a real 450W and the APM made it feel like ~800W. Still, lots of happy customers prove it works but it's a shame they're playing those games...

On the other hand I'm impressed with Orange Terror Bass's bench performance (glad to see the 4/8 ohm switch actually works!) whilst the SP cabs measure out pretty much exactly how I thought they would based on the design and customer feedback (sensitivity is very low and midrange uneven).[/quote]

[stevie]

[quote name='markstuk' post='1325486' date='Aug 3 2011, 12:01 PM']Not seen the article - what was the "specmanship" TC are playing with the RH450?[/quote]
From memory, they measured the output for 2.5% distortion at something like 180 watts. There's a bit more to it than that, which I'm sure Alex will be happy to explain.

[Musicman20]

Google Bass Gear Mag, its free to view

Very good online magazine. Although, as some have noted on Talkbass, the TC ratings will open a can of worms.

If anyone has A/B the TC amps with other micros, taking into account different gain/tapers, the RH450 absolutely slams most other amps in the same category.

There is more than meets the eye with the amp, all within the power management.

[stevie]

[quote name='Musicman20' post='1325526' date='Aug 3 2011, 12:30 PM']Very good online magazine.[/quote]
I agree. It's how it should be done IMO.

[darylchan]

I think the issue would be how the TC 450 series amps give the performance of a 450 watt amp head through ingenious engineering but their true output is only 133w and 236w at 8 and 4 ohm respectively.

[stevie]

I think the issue Alex was referring to, and which was also pointed out by the reviewer, is whether TC should be calling this a 450-watt amp when it isn't. Fit a turbocharger to a 1600cc engine and it's still a 1600cc engine. Just because it performs like everybody else's 3-liter engine doesn't mean you can claim it is one. Not that TC is alone here, as virtually all bass amp manufacturers exaggerate the power output of their products.

How TC get this performance out of the amp is certainly interesting and I didn't have time to read the fairly complex technical explanation in the magazine. I'm not sure I would have understood it anyway. My superficial understanding is that it is down to compression. They are also reducing the level of the lowest fundamentals of the bass and compensating with a boost slightly higher, which I would imagine will also help.

If people are happy with the amp, as they certainly seem to be, perhaps it is nitpicking to criticize.

[darylchan]

[quote name='stevie' post='1326484' date='Aug 4 2011, 03:52 PM']I think the issue Alex was referring to, and which was also pointed out by the reviewer, is whether TC should be calling this a 450-watt amp when it isn't.[/quote]

That's kinda what I was getting at.

[stevie]

And I was agreeing with you.

[alexclaber]

Exactly. Some people find the TC amps sound very loud to them because the APM does its stuff in a way that's pleasing to their ears - I know I wouldn't because I don't like that kind of compression etc - and I'm used to hearing what real clean uncompressed 1000W+ power sounds and feels like courtesy of my QSC PLX 3002. The RH750 really shows the value of this APM DSP because it has the performance of a real 450W head plus APM - in other words what the RH450 should be like without such games being played...

The upside is I can tell customers who want maximum volume from minimum size to buy the '1600W' Blacksmith and crank it into a Midget with impunity! The downside is getting a properly high power Barefaced head sorted is more urgent than ever.

[KK Jale]

First time I've seen this mag. Very comprehensive and interesting review of the Terror, and as Alex says, all kudos to Orange to have those 4/8 ohm power ratings confirmed - and even exceeded.

Also, useful info on the Terror's minimal tone stack. I've started using a Headway EDB-1 preamp into mine for subtle EQ tweaking... seems to work really, really well.

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='1326565' date='Aug 4 2011, 10:08 AM']Exactly. Some people find the TC amps sound very loud to them because the APM does its stuff in a way that's pleasing to their ears - I know I wouldn't because I don't like that kind of compression etc[/quote]
This may - or may not explain why I didn't get on with the TC more than I did... it seemed overly compressed and saggy to my ears.

Whereas the Streamliner was instant punchy SHAZAM.

Of course, the next post will be to point out that that the Streamliner employs similar management technology to the TC, and I'm going to look stupid.

Whatever the reason, the TC just sounded odd to me. That said, plenty of other people who heard it thought it was great.

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='1326727' date='Aug 4 2011, 12:10 PM']Of course, the next post will be to point out that that the Streamliner employs similar management technology to the TC, and I'm going to look stupid.

Whatever the reason, the TC just sounded odd to me. That said, plenty of other people who heard it thought it was great.[/quote]

Well....... Im not technical enough to understand all the specs etc but i have been thinking this all along.

Ive had the overload LED on my Streamliner 600 come on a few times, and im not playing particularly loud. Im wondering if to get the max out of this head you do need to push it hard, and then yes, all that 3D stuff kicks in and limits the low end.

Then again, im probably going to look stupid for posting this.

[nottswarwick]

It does not exactly inspire me to try one out to be honest. Dont like an over compressed tone.

Who knows though - my Abm might do something similar for all I know...

[markstuk]

HI Alex,

I'm in the fortunate position of having an RH450, H&K BaseBass 600 and a PLX2402 (in this case run single channel into a Super12) In terms of loudness, punch and presence there really is not a great deal of difference between the three setups... The PLX2402 run into 2 4ohm 410's (EBS prolines) is a different matter but then again I would expect it to be...


[quote name='alexclaber' post='1326565' date='Aug 4 2011, 10:08 AM']Exactly. Some people find the TC amps sound very loud to them because the APM does its stuff in a way that's pleasing to their ears - I know I wouldn't because I don't like that kind of compression etc - and I'm used to hearing what real clean uncompressed 1000W+ power sounds and feels like courtesy of my QSC PLX 3002. The RH750 really shows the value of this APM DSP because it has the performance of a real 450W head plus APM - in other words what the RH450 should be like without such games being played...

The upside is I can tell customers who want maximum volume from minimum size to buy the '1600W' Blacksmith and crank it into a Midget with impunity! The downside is getting a properly high power Barefaced head sorted is more urgent than ever.[/quote]

Edited August 4, 2011 by markstuk

[nottswarwick]

In fact.. Terror excepted, which of the other small heads give out the full proper watts?

[dave_bass5]

In the Jan issue they tested the MarkBass F500 and found it to be pretty close to the advertised spec.

[nottswarwick]

[quote name='dave_bass5' post='1326863' date='Aug 4 2011, 01:06 PM']In the Jan issue they tested the MarkBass F500 and found it to be pretty close to the advertised spec.[/quote]

Lol not long sold my F1...

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='nottswarwick' post='1326898' date='Aug 4 2011, 01:18 PM']Lol not long sold my F1...[/quote]

Im loving mine :-)

[Prime_BASS]

[quote name='dave_bass5' post='1326863' date='Aug 4 2011, 01:06 PM']In the Jan issue they tested the MarkBass F500 and found it to be pretty close to the advertised spec.[/quote]

I find markbass watts to be very loud personally. I had the LMtube and that was very loud head full stop, not just for a 500watter. I always had a strong feeling the OTB wasn't lieing about it's wattage as that is even louder than the LMTube.