Dealing with a 'muddy' mix

[Skol303]

Hi folks,

I'm currently working on a track for a friend that I need some help with. It's a kind of 'electro-metal' thing - not my usual cup of char, if I'm honest!

The problem I'm having is that...

Distorted bass/guitar + pounding kicks + dirty dubstep synth = A MIXING NIGHTMARE!

I'm struggling to find any headroom in the mix with so much going on at the lower frequencies. Currently, I'm trying to separate the different elements using the standard approaches: EQ'ing, compression, panning, side-chaining the kick and bass, etc, but it's proving difficult as my mixing skills aren't great! (I'm a poor hobbyist, not a pro...). Currently, it still sounds very muddy, with the various bass frequencies ganging up to form a muddled wall of sound.

Anyway, I appreciate there's no 'magic solution' here, but if you have any gems of wisdom then please share them

Ta.

[Valhalalf]

Have you looked at all the low end instruments using a spectral analyzer?

You could use it to see where each instrument is the strongest in the frequency spectrum then add some surgical EQ to cut the lesser frequencies either side of it. This should help add some definition between the kick/bass/synth etc.

[Skol303]

[quote name='Valhalalf' post='1326815' date='Aug 4 2011, 12:48 PM']Have you looked at all the low end instruments using a spectral analyzer?[/quote]

^ Good suggestion, thanks!

I'd honestly not thought about doing this... I tend to mix more with my ears than with my 'eyes' (if that makes any sense?), but in this case I think a spec analyser will be very useful indeed.

Thanks again for the tip.

[Beedster]

Probably something you've thought of/done, but listen to it on several media before deciding it's muddy. I inadvertently picked up the wrong CD ahead of a long car journey the other day and subjected myself to several repeats of our band's first demo, which I mixed. I was amazed how stuff that sounded quite muddy in my room through both monitors and hi-fi sounded much clearer in the car, and I realised that in an attempt to reduce the mud, I had cut way too many of the bass frequencies, for that system anyway.

Also remember to ask the musicians what they want; you've said it's not your sort of music, and in that scenario it's very easy to aim for a technically competent mix as opposed to one that the performers themselves like the sound of, plenty of classic rock tracks sound muddy after all?

Good luck

[Valhalalf]

[quote name='Skol303' post='1327061' date='Aug 4 2011, 02:46 PM']^ Good suggestion, thanks!

I'd honestly not thought about doing this... I tend to mix more with my ears than with my 'eyes' (if that makes any sense?), but in this case I think a spec analyser will be very useful indeed.

Thanks again for the tip.[/quote]

Yeah man i totally agree, mixing with ears is way more preferable than with solely relying on a visual aid. However, with low and high frequencies bordering on the edge of human hearing it can be quite useful for seeing what frequencies the instrument is working in and if an other instruments are encroaching on those frequencies.

Here's a handy interactive frequency chart which may be useful in instrument frequency separation.

[url="http://www.independentrecording.net/irn/resources/freqchart/main_display.htm"]http://www.independentrecording.net/irn/re...ain_display.htm[/url]

You could also try putting in a mid cut at around 250-300Hz which might add a bit of separation between the bass and the mid.

Hope this helps.

[lowdown]

[quote name='Skol303' post='1326805' date='Aug 4 2011, 12:41 PM']Distorted bass/guitar + pounding kicks + dirty dubstep synth = A MIXING NIGHTMARE!
I'm struggling to find any headroom in the mix with so much going on at the lower frequencies.[/quote]


If you are out of headroom, why not bring the channel faders down, and turn the monitors up to the volume you are used to listening to.
Give your self plenty to play with before you do all the EQ'ing. You can always get the volume up with the final stereo mix,
or the mastering stage [with a mastering expert hopefully ]



Garry

[Valhalalf]

That's a really good point Gary

Leave the master fader at 0db then work to having the mix peaking at around -6db to -3db (obviously turning up your speakers to listen at a better level). That way you will have more headroom for the dynamic range of the track. This is also gives more headroom when mastering the track and the final level will be increased back to 0db during the mastering with the application of a mastering compressor or limiter.

[Skol303]

^ Thanks folks, that's what I love about this forum - it's damn useful!

Beedster: nice tip about trialing on different media. I always use my iPod (with tinny white Apple 'phones) and car stereo to test each mix. This particular track sounds pretty good on the iPod, but very muffled in the car... but I'll keep testing it.

Valhalalf: cheers for the freq chart: I've got one of these printed and stuck on my wall, but it's always good to have another one! I'm definitely going to run it all through a spec analyser as you suggested, and try to work out where the cancellation is at its worst.

Garry: yep, another good tip about dropping the faders. I'm normally a stickler for leaving these alone until after I've EQ'd (god knows why, bad habit most likely) but I'll try out your suggestion to give me more room to play with. Not sure if there's going to be a mastering stage as yet - so it might be down to muggins here to do the best I can with it!

... I'll post a link to the finished track once I'm done with it (assuming my mate is ok with that, I'm sure he won't mind). Don't hold your breath though - Mrs Skol and I have our hands full with the newly arrived Skol Jnr at the moment, so my music work is a case of "as and when between changing nappies" at present...!! That reminds me, must wash my hands...

Thanks again.

[51m0n]

Vicious complimetary eq.

So listen to the kick, cut all the gash out of it (ALL of it, -20dB not a problem)

Repeat through the bass stuff, the kick can usually take the heaviest eq though..

When you put them all together what combinations combine to bring back the mud (it is often the way the two tracks do and the other combinations dont so much).

Now comes the 'art', with the tracks that are overlapping badly, you have to decide which one can lose that information at that frequency. Remember you dont need the fundamental (or even the second harmonic as often as not) for your brain to perceive bass, especially if something else is generating that bass.

So go at the overlap with even more vigour, cut from only one out of any pair of signals that causes you pain. You decide which is the must have instrument at that frequency.

Gate anything that rings too long (kick is a prime example) - be vindictive, forget sounding organic, you can always relax your iron fist later, but for now get everything totally tight sounding. Pre-emptive gate opening is really good for the fast transient sounds.

Now think about what area of the waveforms need to be loudest. So the kick needs massive attack, and much less sustain, the bass can lose its attack for the kick, sidechain that out of the way with a compressor, too much may be just enough. Compress things to not just stop anything getting too out of shape dynamically, but also to cut wholes in the waveform where other instruments need to be strong. A well set up compressor can do wonders for this!

Last point mud is more often around the low mid area (200-500Hz) rather than deep bass. Too much deep bass will cause your woofers to leap around and try and escape their enclosures, too much mud just sounds terrible.

[Skol303]

^ Superb! Many thanks 5im0n, really appreciate your input on this.

I think I'm probably being to much of a "wuss" with my EQ'ing and gating, judging by your advice. Must admit I've been trying to balance everything - rather than being selective about what I can and can't lose altogether.

I'll now approach this with a more 'ironed fisted' method, as you suggest!

[PS: Nemesis the Warlock and ABC Warriors... I'm a big fan of those strips myself]

Edited August 4, 2011 by Skol303

[51m0n]

[quote name='Skol303' post='1327364' date='Aug 4 2011, 04:44 PM']^ Superb! Many thanks 5im0n, really appreciate your input on this.

I think I'm probably being to much of a "wuss" with my EQ'ing and gating, judging by your advice. Must admit I've been trying to balance everything - rather than being selective about what I can and can't lose altogether.

I'll now approach this with a more 'ironed fisted' method, as you suggest!

[PS: Nemesis the Warlock and ABC Warriors... I'm a big fan of those strips myself][/quote]

No problem!

Think of it like this, whatever you do you can always ease off a bit to get a more open sound, if what you are doing is really taking too much away.

Oh, and cutting can be done way harder (more db) and way tighter (narrower Q) than boosting can before the result sounds plop. Espoecially in a mix.


Oh yeah, another thing! Hi pass the offenders as high as you dare. Really, I know its bass, but a high pass filter at 45Hz is the least you can do to get rid of really subby issues and will leave all those lovelrly harmonics, your brain will apply those to pretty much any fundamental it hears giving the impression that the original sound is intact [i]alongside[/i] the actual fundamental.

So, you're a bassist, which is the [i]dominant[/i] bass instrument in this mix? Distorted bass guitar (nope), kick (nope), or dub synth (almost certainly).

So prioritise the low lows from the dub synth, the mids from the bass guitar, the kick should provide slap at around 4KHz and a healthy supportive whallop, in order to do which it must duck the other two (and hard). A good trick if you want the kick to really get noticed is to set a good 15ms of preattack on the compressor doing the ducking so the other instruments noticeably go away just before the kick turns up. In fact you can get a really cool almost pumping effect if you lengthen that and make it part of the groove.

Be brutal as hell, those sounds are yours to control, so do it

And yeah, Deadlock rocks (although I think Rogue Trooper is probably my all time favourite character from a comic).

[Rimskidog]

[quote name='Skol303' post='1327061' date='Aug 4 2011, 02:46 PM']^ Good suggestion, thanks!

I'd honestly not thought about doing this... I tend to mix more with my ears than with my 'eyes' (if that makes any sense?), but in this case I think a spec analyser will be very useful indeed.

Thanks again for the tip.[/quote]

This makes perfect sense. Don't even start heading down this path.

[Rimskidog]

[quote name='51m0n' post='1327221' date='Aug 4 2011, 03:49 PM']Vicious complimetary eq.

So listen to the kick, cut all the gash out of it (ALL of it, -20dB not a problem)

Repeat through the bass stuff, the kick can usually take the heaviest eq though..

When you put them all together what combinations combine to bring back the mud (it is often the way the two tracks do and the other combinations dont so much).

Now comes the 'art', with the tracks that are overlapping badly, you have to decide which one can lose that information at that frequency. Remember you dont need the fundamental (or even the second harmonic as often as not) for your brain to perceive bass, especially if something else is generating that bass.

So go at the overlap with even more vigour, cut from only one out of any pair of signals that causes you pain. You decide which is the must have instrument at that frequency.

Gate anything that rings too long (kick is a prime example) - be vindictive, forget sounding organic, you can always relax your iron fist later, but for now get everything totally tight sounding. Pre-emptive gate opening is really good for the fast transient sounds.

Now think about what area of the waveforms need to be loudest. So the kick needs massive attack, and much less sustain, the bass can lose its attack for the kick, sidechain that out of the way with a compressor, too much may be just enough. Compress things to not just stop anything getting too out of shape dynamically, but also to cut wholes in the waveform where other instruments need to be strong. A well set up compressor can do wonders for this!

Last point mud is more often around the low mid area (200-500Hz) rather than deep bass. Too much deep bass will cause your woofers to leap around and try and escape their enclosures, too much mud just sounds terrible.[/quote]

Great advice. Cut, cut, cut! Use your ears to tell you how much. cut with everything in the mix so you can hear how its affecting the mix rather than the single instrument. Cutting solo'd tracks will tell you nothing.

[Skol303]

[quote name='51m0n' post='1327486' date='Aug 4 2011, 05:26 PM']Hi pass the offenders as high as you dare. Really, I know its bass, but a high pass filter at 45Hz is the least you can do to get rid of really subby issues and will leave all those lovelrly harmonics...[/quote]

^ Nice, I like this idea.

[quote name='51m0n' post='1327486' date='Aug 4 2011, 05:26 PM']...prioritise the low lows from the dub synth, the mids from the bass guitar, the kick should provide slap at around 4KHz and a healthy supportive whallop, in order to do which it must duck the other two (and hard). A good trick if you want the kick to really get noticed is to set a good 15ms of preattack on the compressor doing the ducking so the other instruments noticeably go away just before the kick turns up.[/quote]

^ And this one!

As you guessed, it's the dubstep synth that's currently dominating the mix, so thanks again for the tips on how to "tame" it.

Less itsy-bitsy tweaking and more brutal chopping is going to be my new approach to this particular track!

Thanks again for the help - and also to Rimskidog for the tip about EQ'ing with everything in the mix.

Great stuff guys, superb advice much appreciated.

[cheddatom]

heh, the amount of times i've got a great sound on a solo'd track only to have to re-do all the EQ when it's in the mix...

[51m0n]

[quote name='Skol303' post='1328748' date='Aug 5 2011, 02:20 PM']^ Nice, I like this idea.



^ And this one!

As you guessed, it's the dubstep synth that's currently dominating the mix, so thanks again for the tips on how to "tame" it.

Less itsy-bitsy tweaking and more brutal chopping is going to be my new approach to this particular track!

Thanks again for the help - and also to Rimskidog for the tip about EQ'ing with everything in the mix.

Great stuff guys, superb advice much appreciated.[/quote]

No worries, and Rimskidog is the don....

[Mugz.wood]

i found EQing the kick before putting on a noise gate helps keep the kick sounding good and not sacrificing to much whilst clearing of the clutter

[Skol303]

[quote name='Mugz.wood' post='1331816' date='Aug 8 2011, 10:55 AM']i found EQing the kick before putting on a noise gate helps keep the kick sounding good and not sacrificing to much whilst clearing of the clutter[/quote]

^ Cheers for the tip! Makes sense... do the EQ'ing before I put a gate on the volume.

Haven't tried this yet, so it's now on my 'To Do' list with this particular track