Volume confusion

[Grassie]

Hi everyone.


Maybe someone can clear this up for me. I've just taken delivery of a brand new Gallien Kreuger MB210 combo rated at 350w @ 8 ohms or 500w @ 4 ohms. I've tried it out, but for the power rating, it seems a little quiet. The sound is fantastically clear and has a surprising amount of bottom end, there are no buzzes or hisses either. I've noticed a small label on the rear of the unit which says: Full power: 580w average power: 128w. What exactly is the 128w refering to? Is this a 350w amp on it's own, or what? I have to wind the volume knob round to 3 o'clock to get it to "gigging" level, with the gain at 12 o'clock. I am confused....

[alexclaber]

Turn the knobs as high as you need them to get the loudness you need. If that doesn't get you what you need then you haven't got enough power, power handling or sensitivity - the speakers are likely to be the limiting factor. Realistically you're looking at under 200W excursion limited power handling from the 2x10" enclosure and under 97dB sensitivity so 120dB at best, more like 116dB - that certainly isn't quiet but it'll struggle in a rock band without considerate guitarists. Add more speakers if you need more loudness.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Grant' post='1329099' date='Aug 5 2011, 01:58 PM']I have to wind the volume knob round to 3 o'clock to get it to "gigging" level, with the gain at 12 o'clock. I am confused.... [/quote]Google [i]gain structure[/i]. As for how loud it's capable of going, that's determined by the displacement limit, frequency response and sensitivity of the drivers, not the amp power rating.

[ficelles]

Speaker sensitivity is the key, well that and how the output power is actually measured...

Fwiw, in my GK days I found their power ratings to be well over-estimated, and there was always a lack of clean headroom. If you can't get pre-amp gain round to 3-o'clock with a passive bass without distortion then there's something wrong imho. If you need the master volume at 3-o'clock to match an acoustic drum kit then you have not got a "true" 350w amp.

ficelles

[Marvin]

There have been a couple of other members bought this combo and said it was quite loud, so it is a little perplexing.

[Grassie]

Thing is, my last rig was a Hartke HA5000 head with a VX410, rated at 220w @ 8 ohms. This seemed a fair bit louder than the GK, but would clip and start to distort at around 11 o'clock. I must add that the HA5000 didn't have a gain, just a master volume plus various mid, high, low, mid-high, mid-low etc. controls, so I'm not used to gain (I'm sounding a bit naive I know, but I know what I sould be hearing). Maybe my ears have been so atuned to that rig, that anything like the GK is bound to sound different. 2 x 10 vs 4 x 10 is a big difference, modern neodymium speakers as opposed to old school magnets... I've also yet to try the GK in a band setting, but finding a decent drummer for my new band is turning into a nightmare, but that's for another thread...

[stingrayPete1977]

I know little about the decibels and output side of things but I'm guessing the 580-128 average watts is regarding the power consumed from the mains, so roughly the same as between a halogen security light down to a couple of old fashioned 60watt light bulbs together.

[alexclaber]

I'd expect your old rig to sound quite a bit louder and fatter than the new one when both are pushed to the limits - you have more power now but you don't have the volume displacement to take advantage of it. If you reduce cone area you have to get the volume displacement back through increased cone excursion or you'll lose out on the max LF SPL front. The magnet material doesn't really have any effect on the sound - it's way way down the list of things that affect the tone/performance of a speaker.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Grant' post='1329357' date='Aug 5 2011, 05:51 PM']2 x 10 vs 4 x 10 is a big difference[/quote]The equivalent of reducing your power by 75%, to be exact. Going from a 4x10 to a 2x10 reduces both sensitivity and displacement, the two factors that you can't sacrifice if you need high output.

[ficelles]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='1329384' date='Aug 5 2011, 11:15 PM']The magnet material doesn't really have any effect on the sound - it's way way down the list of things that affect the tone/performance of a speaker.[/quote]

OMG I can't believe you said that! You surely don't mean that all those guitarists who lay out £££s for alnico are wasting their money? You'd better tell Celestion to drop the price of their Blue series

Anyway I'm going to disagree - for whatever reason bass neo speakers are much punchier and have better hf response than ceramics, imho of course. And (also imho) neos are crap for guitar as they are way too spikey and brittle-sounding. Based on my own experience, and just sayin'...

ficelles

[alexclaber]

The reason you've found neos to have more punch and better highs than ferrite is because it's easier to get more flux through the magnetic gap. But it all comes down to the design of the magnetic system and voice coil. If I wanted to I could design a neo guitar driver that performs almost exactly like a ferrite or AlNiCo driver or a ferrite bass driver that performs like a neo bass driver. A lot of guitar and bass speakers sound the way they sound because that's just how the parts come together to produce a result but that doesn't mean you can't be much more prescriptive in the design process.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='ficelles' post='1329406' date='Aug 5 2011, 11:51 PM']OMG I can't believe you said that! You surely don't mean that all those guitarists who lay out £££s for alnico are wasting their money? You'd better tell Celestion to drop the price of their Blue series [/quote]

There are reasons we refer to them as guitards. They still use those cabs with 4 big speakers in a square shape, and then stand right against it.

[ficelles]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='1329454' date='Aug 6 2011, 12:55 AM']There are reasons we refer to them as guitards. They still use those cabs with 4 big speakers in a square shape, and then stand right against it.[/quote]

Celestion Blues Alnico drivers... 15W power handling, retails around £190 per driver. That's one helluva pricey 60W 4 x 12! I think the Gold series is even more expensive...

ficelles

Edited August 6, 2011 by ficelles

[ficelles]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='1329410' date='Aug 6 2011, 12:00 AM']The reason you've found neos to have more punch and better highs than ferrite is because it's easier to get more flux through the magnetic gap. But it all comes down to the design of the magnetic system and voice coil. If I wanted to I could design a neo guitar driver that performs almost exactly like a ferrite or AlNiCo driver or a ferrite bass driver that performs like a neo bass driver. A lot of guitar and bass speakers sound the way they sound because that's just how the parts come together to produce a result but that doesn't mean you can't be much more prescriptive in the design process.[/quote]

Makes me wonder why neos have become popular for bass but notably less so for guitar? I remember when neos first came out they were touted as having "alnico-like" response and there was a big push at the guitar market but they just didn't impress. Maybe there's too much investment needed to make the difference?

ficelles

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='ficelles' post='1329476' date='Aug 6 2011, 01:21 AM']Celestion Blues Alnico drivers... 15W power handling, retails around £190 per driver. That's one helluva pricey 60W 4 x 12! I think the Gold series is even more expensive...

ficelles[/quote]

I don't think those are for 4x12s. They are for oldschool bluesy things with a combo that looks like a small suitcase. Making guitar speakers is too niche for going out of your way to please them when they are happy with their inferior products. They still buy telecasters and Gibsons with comedy detachable headstocks.

[ficelles]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='1329487' date='Aug 6 2011, 01:35 AM']Gibsons with comedy detachable headstocks.[/quote]

I actually saw that happen at a festival I played last year... a very windy day and our dep guitarist noticed the singer's acoustic about to take flight out of its stand so grabbed it, then looked round to see his vintage ES-175 on the deck with no headstock

ficelles

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='ficelles' post='1329480' date='Aug 5 2011, 08:27 PM']Makes me wonder why neos have become popular for bass but notably less so for guitar?[/quote]Because bass players tend to be more learned about how their gear works and are less mired in antique technology. If guitar'd players used the same standards for buying cars as they do their kit most would be driving Morris Minors.

[chris_b]

Most of the guitar players I play with sound pretty good, so I'm glad they use the gear they do. They all use amps made by a guy who apparently didn't know what he was doing!

The compromises that Leo Fender settled upon when designing his guitar amps hit the spot with me.

[Blademan_98]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='1329520' date='Aug 6 2011, 03:17 AM']Because bass players tend to be more learned about how their gear works and are less mired in antique technology. If guitar'd players used the same standards for buying cars as they do their kit most would be driving Morris Minors.[/quote]

Ah, I wondered why I had a passion for early Mini's

[Grassie]

Thanks for your explanations guys - very helpful. Judging by my drummer situation it's gonna be a while before I can try the GK in a band setting, but I'm hoping that because I've managed to jettison a guitarist and go for a three-piece band, I'll still be able to cut through nicely. I'm going to have a fiddle with it later (no sniggering at the back), to see just how much I can push it. The reason for switching to a 2 x 10 was purely a weight saving decision, as my back is not as strong as once was. My understanding of power ratings is (was) quite limited, (no sh*t), so thanks once again.

[xgsjx]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='1329520' date='Aug 6 2011, 03:17 AM']Because bass players tend to be more learned about how their gear works and are less mired in antique technology. If guitar'd players used the same standards for buying cars as they do their kit most would be driving Morris Minors.[/quote]
This'll be why one of my guitarist drives a metro (& manages to load it up with a Vox AC30, 2 electric guitars, 1 electro acoustic, a largish pedal board, a tool box, a box of wires & a few other bits) & the other one drives a Fiat Doblo.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='Grant' post='1329592' date='Aug 6 2011, 08:49 AM']Thanks for your explanations guys - very helpful. Judging by my drummer situation it's gonna be a while before I can try the GK in a band setting, but I'm hoping that because I've managed to jettison a guitarist and go for a three-piece band, I'll still be able to cut through nicely. I'm going to have a fiddle with it later (no sniggering at the back), to see just how much I can push it. The reason for switching to a 2 x 10 was purely a weight saving decision, as my back is not as strong as once was. My understanding of power ratings is (was) quite limited, (no sh*t), so thanks once again. [/quote]

Cut lows and bump mids, the lows are what push speakers to the limits, mids are what you hear. Sounding a bit rubbish on its own doesn't matter so much in context.

[chris_b]

I would still plan on getting the 210 extension cab.

[4-string-thing]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='1329454' date='Aug 6 2011, 12:55 AM']There are reasons we refer to them as guitards. They still use those cabs with 4 big speakers in a square shape, and then stand right against it.[/quote]

I stopped calling them g*****ds a while back, I prefer ham-fisted meat heads nowdays!

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='1329520' date='Aug 6 2011, 03:17 AM']Because bass players tend to be more learned about how their gear works and are less mired in antique technology. If guitar'd players used the same standards for buying cars as they do their kit most would be driving Morris Minors.[/quote]

I must be a guitarist after all then