LM3 vs F500

[Prime_BASS]

[quote name='dave_bass5' post='1335695' date='Aug 10 2011, 09:00 PM']The times i had to turn right up were with smaller cabs like my MB 151P. I never go near halfway with my 1212L[/quote]

You should get a S12T!
I'm finding 9 o'clock to be enough with the f1. The preamp is clipping a lot later on the gain stage than with RH.
However like all heads, it does run out of juice at around 1-2 o'clock on the master.

[chrismuzz]

[quote name='Prime_BASS' post='1335842' date='Aug 10 2011, 10:40 PM']You should get a S12T!
I'm finding 9 o'clock to be enough with the f1. The preamp is clipping a lot later on the gain stage than with RH.
However like all heads, it does run out of juice at around 1-2 o'clock on the master.[/quote]

This! I used the F1/S12T combination with a passive bass and heavy compression on a very loud metal gig. I had it at about 1'oclock on the Gain, and 12'oclock on the Master and I have never had so many compliments on the tone, and how audible i was without being overpowering

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='Prime_BASS' post='1335842' date='Aug 10 2011, 10:40 PM']You should get a S12T!
I'm finding 9 o'clock to be enough with the f1. The preamp is clipping a lot later on the gain stage than with RH.
However like all heads, it does run out of juice at around 1-2 o'clock on the master.[/quote]

Oh my 1212L is loud enough. Sometimes i think i should turn up during gigs abut listening back to the recordings we always make (from the stage) im always a bit too loud, and thast around 11 o'clock or lower.
We arent a loud band but we dont have PA support as such, just a bit fo DI to give a bit of spread to the back of the room.

I do find the gain to be a bit higher on the F1, compared to my SA450/LMII, so i have the gain knob around 11 o'clock, on my old SA450 it was around 3 o'clock. I dont have the LED flashing.

[markorbit]

I will agree that the F500 is 'fiddly'. I borrowed an F1 and then based on that I bought an F500 which I had for a while. It was ok but didn't compare to my more expensive preamp/Berg combination so I sold it as I didn't need 2 rigs. My situation has changed and I now want a 2nd rig again and I would take the F1 instead of the F500.

This sounds delicious.
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49nnpXzPMlA"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49nnpXzPMlA[/url]

I don't have any experience yet with the LM3.

Edited August 11, 2011 by markorbit

[chrismuzz]

[quote name='markorbit' post='1335961' date='Aug 11 2011, 01:06 AM']This sounds delicious.
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49nnpXzPMlA"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49nnpXzPMlA[/url][/quote]

It sure does! And shows how versatile this amp is! I use it for a nasty high mid/trebley aggressive tone and it does it better than anything i've ever tried. Will never stop singing the praises of the F1

[Prime_BASS]

I'm going to explode soon, in a fit of markbass gas.

[Musicman20]

I think Markbass should be applauded for fitting in SO much on the F500, but I found the EQ quite hard to gauge when I was comparing it to the LM3.

Id say the main differences are:

LM3 - Slightly warmer, still punchy and clear in the mids, quite a sheen up top, but no hi mid bump.

F1/500 - Slightly faster, quicker response, very punchy, similar high end, but also a bump in the hi mids.

The LM3 seems much more natural to my ears, a little smoother. The F1/500 definitely has a slightly different nature.

As they are both so close, and I actually prefer the footprint of the LM3 (its just the right weight and size) Ive opted for the LM3 as I never used to use the EQ....it sounded so good flat with occasional VLE added.

I still think quality-wise, the Italian-made Markbass is top of the pile with TC. Genz are great at what they do, but they don't 'feel' as solid and as well made as the MB/TC gear. Maybe this reflects why the Genz gear can be cheaper despite the amount they cram in, plus its made in Taiwan I believe.

MB have stated they will never start production overseas; it will always be in Italy. I quite like that. I know some Talkbass members want to support USA companies all the time, but as we are over here, im more than happy to dip into European-made products. We have some great gear in the UK/Europe (eg MB, Tecamp, TC, Orange, Glock, EBS).

Edited August 11, 2011 by Musicman20

[dave_bass5]

Good Choice Gareth. I think for the money the LMIII is a better bet over the F500, especially if you dont need all the EQ options, and i dont think any of us really do although i did find it came in handy in the more awkward rooms when i had my SA450.

I agree with you about the GB's not feeling quite as well made, at least the Streamliner. I felt the knobs didnt have that quality feel and movement like my MB heads have. They felt pretty cheap to me.

Edited August 11, 2011 by dave_bass5

[JTUK]

The reason about my point with Markbass running hard is this.

My SWR gets more grindey..which I don't really want...but I am pushing that at 2 o'clock gain and about the same for the master.
Good sound and still consistant but the valve is working a tad hard, I feel, for my tastes.

The Thundefunk is a louder rated amp and I take that when more level is required and it just gets better and better when pushed.
I know I am still in the relatively early stages, but this amp is sheer quality at a sound level some other don't cope with, IME.
No idea about the switch though... very very subtle..!!!

Whether RH750 can do the same, I don't know, but its low level sound is very good, so maybe..?
Maybe you need that headroom to keep control of the sound..??

I think the Markbass is a good amp if running about half on the dials..anymore and that sorts the men out from the boys, IMO.

[Musicman20]

Agreed. My next decision is cab based between the NY122 (4 ohm) or the Club 102 (8 ohm). I can only get one.

My thinking is that MB amps seem to 'open up' better at 4 ohms, and I didnt really want to get two more cabinets, (eg 2x Club 102) so the 2x12 would be a better option.

I did briefly test an NY122 in my apartment and from the off, you could tell it would cut the mix so well, but with plenty of non-boomy bass. The speakers absolutely hammer in these cabs (they piston a lot!) and I think that 2x12 in particular can take a lot thats thrown at it.

It also has that good vertical or horizontal design to it. Most the time it could go on a table at the back horizontal.

[JTUK]

ha ha ...you just want nice new kit.

With the gear you have, I'd be thinking, maybe, getting a DB210. Not the lightest 210 but very capable and will also sit on top of your DB212
to add upto an awesome rig if ever you needed hi power. It works as a decent standalone for all but loud gigs, IMO.

Then...you add a DB750 for the FO fest rig... or a TFB750-A, but there will probably be a fight for one of those if one cropped up

[Prime_BASS]

Personally the 2x12 is better option. Not the lightest I've ever picked up but the sound it makes is one of the better ones from the MB cab range.

I don't know why but I don't rate markbass cabs as much as the heads.

[Musicman20]

[quote name='Prime_BASS' post='1337187' date='Aug 12 2011, 12:59 AM']Personally the 2x12 is better option. Not the lightest I've ever picked up but the sound it makes is one of the better ones from the MB cab range.

I don't know why but I don't rate markbass cabs as much as the heads.[/quote]

Yeah, it's marmite with these. Again, I think their latest line is much stronger, I did try the NY122 a fee times and for the size/weight, it was damn right impressive.

I don't really want to get two 2x10s as the RS cabs cover that and they do it very well, but a slim 4 ohm powerful 2x12 with a fairly light weight is a good option.

[Prime_BASS]

[quote name='Musicman20' post='1337234' date='Aug 12 2011, 08:05 AM']Yeah, it's marmite with these. Again, I think their latest line is much stronger, I did try the NY122 a fee times and for the size/weight, it was damn right impressive.

I don't really want to get two 2x10s as the RS cabs cover that and they do it very well, but a slim 4 ohm powerful 2x12 with a fairly light weight is a good option.[/quote]

Barefaced S12T?
The sound is glorious with class A/B amps, especially the littlemark range.

[JTUK]

[quote name='Musicman20' post='1337234' date='Aug 12 2011, 08:05 AM']Yeah, it's marmite with these. Again, I think their latest line is much stronger, I did try the NY122 a fee times and for the size/weight, it was damn right impressive.

I don't really want to get two 2x10s as the RS cabs cover that and they do it very well, but a slim 4 ohm powerful 2x12 with a fairly light weight is a good option.[/quote]


I suggested a solo Db210 to go ontop of the DB212 and be modular should you ever need to gig more than one cab/DB210.

Or..AE212..altho now they have let the Neo range go...?? it might be hard to source top end drivers as replacements should this be necessary somewhere done the line. For this reason, I'd not want to pay top $ for a discontinued line now.

[Musicman20]

[quote name='JTUK' post='1337404' date='Aug 12 2011, 11:16 AM']I suggested a solo Db210 to go ontop of the DB212 and be modular should you ever need to gig more than one cab/DB210.

Or..AE212..altho now they have let the Neo range go...?? it might be hard to source top end drivers as replacements should this be necessary somewhere done the line. For this reason, I'd not want to pay top $ for a discontinued line now.[/quote]

Ah, sorry, got ya. The only problem is my DB212 is also 4 ohm...I did have two 8 ohm DB212s, but I never needed them. The 4 ohm sounds HUGE, but its a big cabinet! It also never being sold...I really like it.

The NY122 is a lot smaller, and about 18-20 lbs lighter.

I nearly bought an AE212, but the Talkbass chaps said it is a bit fussy with what amp you have, and my lineup wasnt the best for an already bass heavy cabinet.

I agree, I wouldnt want to pay a lot for a discontinued line, no matter how good it is. At least Markbas seem to keep lines for a while and source their own drivers from B&C (I think its them).

Anyway, here is a pic when I tested the F500/NY122...quite a small setup and I think with the LM3 it would be great. Its nowhere near as deep as the RS212.

[attachment=86805:F500NY122_Vertical.JPG]

Edited August 12, 2011 by Musicman20

[dave_bass5]

wow. that cab is even smaller than my 1212L but the looks of it.

[Musicman20]

Its not as small as the 1212L I dont think. When I unpacked it, I was a bit shocked at how easy it was to move because they have the recessed large handles either end. It was easy-ish on my own, but I imagine it would be a breeze with another person on the other handle.

Size wise, the drivers have more space around them compare to the RS212, but the cab is quite a bit shallower, which is what I want.

What I noticed compared to the RS212, was that it was a lot more unforgiving...as they describe, a cab with a 'flat response' on their site. Still a little bit of a mid bump like MB cabs have, but more of a full low end.

It also seemed like volume was effortless...the drivers piston like crazy on the Markbass cabs, and I could tell straight away that it would handle whatever you throw at it. At the time, I sent it back as I had far too many cabs, but now Im getting rid of one, this seems like the best lightweight/small/powerful compromise out there for what I want. The other good thing was that they used a compression driver for the highs...it could get VERY trebly and snappy if needed, but I dialed it off for the testing.

All my cabs are quite smooth and aimed at a vintage tone, hence I fancied something much more hi-fi, accurate, and clear.

I emailed Peter Murray at Markbass, and he owns both the Club 102 and NY122. He said for sheer output and lowend, the NY122 wins hands down, because its made with thicker wood and is obviously at 4 ohms with 12s.

The Club would apparently sound much more aggressive if stacked with another identical cabinet, but that unfortunately means Id have to buy two! Something I didnt want to really do.

Edited August 12, 2011 by Musicman20

[alexclaber]

[quote name='Musicman20' post='1337487' date='Aug 12 2011, 12:14 PM']...."for sheer output and lowend, the NY122 wins hands down, because its made with thicker wood..."[/quote]

And Usain Bolt runs fast because he has big feet. I despair...

[dave_bass5]

I just checked the spec's and the MB cab is wider (across the front) but not quite as deep or tall as my 1212L. Nothing in it really though, around 1".
I just got the impression it was smaller from you pic as thats how i normally set my rig up and i seem to have a bit more room on top of the cab.

Im interested to see what you think of it. After having just the one bad experience with a MB cab i must admit its put me off them a bit.

You do realise that you might have to tape this rig down to the stage once you turn up lol. Ive played a few very smooth stages and found my lightweight rigs move a round a bit when the volume is loud, at least, until i got a Gramma pad.

Edited August 12, 2011 by dave_bass5

[Musicman20]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='1337496' date='Aug 12 2011, 12:22 PM']And Usain Bolt runs fast because he has big feet. I despair... [/quote]

I think what he means is, the cabinet is more heavily braced, with heavier woods, so the cabinet is more dense and has more weight to it.

He did also say the 12s and the fact its 4 ohms/bigger box adds to its volume and fuller tone.

I can see what he means, because some of the really thinly made/featherlight cabs do sound quite thin and midrangey.

It might not be exactly why the NY122 has more low end and grunt to it, but I imagine it adds to it.

Just like comparing a Marshall 4x12 guitar cabinet with a very heavy/thick wood Orange 4x12. Admittedly, more to it than that, but there we go.

Edited August 12, 2011 by Musicman20

[alexclaber]

The weight or density of the cab has absolutely no bearing on the tone or the bottom end [b]if[/b] it's made properly. All that matters is having sufficient stiffness to raise the panel resonances high enough that they can be effectively damped. It astounds me how many people in the industry* still think that a bass cab resonates like a bass guitar or double bass and thus the weight affects the sound. There are two upsides to making cabs heavy - it's cheap and it impresses people that still believe heavy weight = heavy tone.

* I totally understand bassists thinking this when they've been fed so much misinformation for so long!

[Musicman20]

It isnt really heavy though, its just the same wood they use for the other cabinets, apart from the Club cabinets (tolex covered, thinner/lighter wood).

49lbs is still light for a 2x12, IMO. The Genz competition Neo X212T is 52lbs, and the Bergantino AE212 is around 56lbs.

Being extremely lightweight isnt my goal, I just a fairly compact and well made 2x12.

[alexclaber]

Yes I can see that. But if someone tells you that it sounds different because of the different wood density/thickness/weight then it tells you one of two things:

1. They don't know what they're talking about.
2. Their cabs aren't properly braced.

Fortunately it's more often the former than the latter.

If I cared about our cabs being 'extremely lightweight' we wouldn't use heavier (and more potent but more expensive) neo woofers than everyone else!

[JTUK]

[quote name='Musicman20' post='1337547' date='Aug 12 2011, 12:50 PM']It isnt really heavy though, its just the same wood they use for the other cabinets, apart from the Club cabinets (tolex covered, thinner/lighter wood).

49lbs is still light for a 2x12, IMO. The Genz competition Neo X212T is 52lbs, and the Bergantino AE212 is around 56lbs.

Being extremely lightweight isnt my goal, I just a fairly compact and well made 2x12.[/quote]


I see your point now.. with your DB212 being 4 ohms.
I am not a fan of Markbass cabs soundwise..but haven't used the entire range, of course.
I did note someone here saying whenever he has heard a good bass sound the bass player used Markbass..and whilst I think the amps are good, I am not convinced myself on the cabs. I have to say that the vast majority of guys using Markbass cabs round here had a flabby sound. I can't explain it as I think it is very good gear, they do things right, etc etc...but I stand by that observation.

A good friend of mine uses Epifanis as they are tighter, he says....??? hmmm....!!!!

Having said that, I saw a prototype 610..??? which had black drivers as opposed to yellow...so that must be what it is.
No bumble bee buzzing in a lightweight box