Overwater vs Wood & Tronics

[bassjamm]

Hi folks...

I'm considering a quest into the world of having a custom built bass.

It's in it's early stages, but I'm heavily considering the two luthiers mentioned, Overwater and Wood & Tronics.

Overwater - I've never played a bass that feels so comfortable to play. They beat the Marleaux's I've played, the F Bass, Ken Smith, MTD's, Celindar's etc. But the sound has never blown me away. However, the right wood combos and the selection of the right pickups and pre-amp and it'd offer a more 'me' sound I feel.

Wood & Tronics - Never played one, going purely by reputation and a modest amount of knowledge on basses. I'm a fan of the Zoid design. I heavily respect their Fodera experience and feel that works in their favour. I've also heard extremely positive things about their feel. As for the sound, the youtube video of the Hamilton Zoid says it all to me. I appreciate that's just a video though.

Both options are probably going to work out around £2250-2750. I need to save up A LOT before I make any decisions.

What are your thoughts my fellow Basschatters?

Does anyone have any thoughts on which would be the wisest purchase considering the financial climate and resale values? I'm obviously hoping that selling the bass would never be needed...but I need to consider it to a degree!

Thanks in advance.

Jamie

[pantherairsoft]

I've been through the buil process with Overwater. They are very helpful and Chris May is a fantastic man to help vuid you. I was very happy with mine tonally, still one of the best basses I've played for punch and growl, but the weight of mine was an issue and so I sold it on. I've never played another with similar weight though so it was just mine. I'd recommend them.

As for W&T - send Mcgraham a PM. He's had a custom done and actually owns two. I'd consider them more tonally diverse than the Overwaters, bit also harder to get to grips with. I'm not an owner though so that's just from my playing with mcgrahams...

Shep

[bassjamm]

Hi Shep,

Thanks for the reply. I'm in touch with Mark, we've known each other for yonks. Not played his W&T's yet though.

What wood combo was your Overwater and how did it balance?

Thanks
Jamie

[pantherairsoft]

Mine was ash with a Wenge top. The bite and punch was massive and the low B the best I'd heard... But that much Wenge comes with a 12.6lb price tag. Balance was fine, but the weight meant balance meant nothing...

[bassjamm]

[quote name='pantherairsoft' post='1334203' date='Aug 9 2011, 09:14 PM']Mine was ash with a Wenge top. The bite and punch was massive and the low B the best I'd heard... But that much Wenge comes with a 12.6lb price tag. Balance was fine, but the weight meant balance meant nothing...[/quote]

Ah yeah, no balance issues there then...other than keeping your balance when you lean too far forward or backwards with that around your neck! Ha!

I'd be going for a 5 string, E-C, probably with a 33" scale...so the depth of the B wouldn't be in question. Although the Overwater's I've played in the past had 'B' issues...but that is all dependant upon woods and scale lengths etc I guess.

Thanks for your help pal!

[ThomBassmonkey]

If all the overwaters you've played have been comfy, go with that IMO. I like overwaters, they sound and feels great to me. Not played a W&T but if I was putting down money on a custom I'd pick the one that I've played and consistently liked.

[pantherairsoft]

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' post='1334322' date='Aug 9 2011, 10:38 PM']If all the overwaters you've played have been comfy, go with that IMO. I like overwaters, they sound and feels great to me. Not played a W&T but if I was putting down money on a custom I'd pick the one that I've played and consistently liked.[/quote]

Agreed.

Id suggest going to BassDirect for a day (or half day at least) and playing every W&T and Overwater Mark has. He'll be more than happy for you to drink his tea and eat his biscuits for a day, and you'll know what your getting across a broad spectrum of basses. I would suggest everyone does this when they are looking at high end instruments. If you go for a custom W&T, Mark is also the man to speak to in order to get the best price on one...

Shep

[ziggydolphinboy]

Never played an overwater ,
but i aquareid a nice wood and tronics 5 string chronos on here,
the sound is awesome its beutifully balanced and i get lots of nice coments about the bass.
its currently strung b to g but im hoping to change that to e to c ,
the workmanship is second to none on the bass and the batterry cover is cool too!!
the string spacing is wider than my other basses but its easy to get used too.
the electrics are very versatile, its active /passive with single ciol humber swicthes for each pick up (good idea0 but i use it in both single ciol.
id defo consider a zoid as i love the shape but if i get a bass made it will definately be a sei bass.
but the wood and tronics is i think worth the money youd pay for a new one.

i must get her back out again (recently bought a sei 5 thats bowled me over a bit and i got a nice super jazz 5 that the gallery spun there magic on recently).
so i havent played her in a while.

[bassjamm]

Thanks again chaps...

And yeah, I'm planning on going over there sometime soon as it happens. I'm well aware that it's best to do my homework first with regards to playing basses and what before putting the money down. I've spent way too much money in the past buying basses blind. But it's helped me to gain a decent knowledge of what I like and don't like.

As it happens Shep, I've been speaking with Mark (mcgraham) about getting together...he mentioned you both get together every now and then. Ideally I'd be buying back the Ken Smith that I sold to him, but it's got lost in the world of buying and selling. That bass played and sounded cracking to my ears...not 'the one', but not far off in many respects!

Thanks again chaps!

Jamie

[chris_b]

There are enough Overwaters for sale here and at Bass Direct to last you a lifetime.

[bassjamm]

[quote name='chris_b' post='1334423' date='Aug 10 2011, 01:11 AM']There are enough Overwaters for sale here and at Bass Direct to last you a lifetime.[/quote]

Not with the specifications I'm looking for.

And ziggydolphinboy...I've been chatting one one of the previous owners of your bass. It certainly is a unique beast that for sure! Why would you choose Sei though if I may ask?

[BigRedX]

If there are no Overwaters with the specifications you want then an Overwater is not for you.

The trick with getting a custom instrument how you want it is to pick a luthier who is already making something very close to it. There are plenty of custom builders out there so somewhere will be the right person to make your bass.

Edited August 10, 2011 by BigRedX

[dmccombe7]

[quote name='BigRedX' post='1334655' date='Aug 10 2011, 10:36 AM']If there are no Overwaters with the specifications you want then an Overwater is not for you.

The trick with getting a custom instrument how you want it is to pick a luthier who is already making something very close to it. There are plenty of custom builders out there so somewhere will be the right person to make your bass.[/quote]


Agree with this.
The Overwater had the basic spec i was looking for and from there Chris advised and fine tuned to exactly what i was looking for.
Like most good luthiers he will advise what works best and point out any pitfalls in your decision making.
At the end of the day its your decision what you want but please remember that these guys have learned through trial and error rather than on cost only.
Chris and his team have a lot of experience and won't feed you any rubbish. He also makes a good coffee.
I haven't tried W&T so no experience of them other than "looked at them" at the time but they didn't do it for me with their basic spec.

This level of custom ain't cheap so don't rush in and like someone else pointed out best to go to Bass Direct, try a few mfr's and go home and reconsider what you're gut feeling tells you is the right direction.

Worked for me and I've now ordered a 2nd Overwater although not a Custom this time.

If you want any details of my Overwater 6 string fretless drop me a PM.

Good luck and keep us posted.

Cheers
Dave

[ziggydolphinboy]

Hi Jamie
y would i choose sei.......
simply absolute class mate.
my 3 seis are all second hand ones and they are all blooming awesome, ive had a shuker and a usa spector and the seis blow them away, and the wt comes very close 2nd.
the craftmnanship from martin at the gallery is simply (imho) unsurpassable, every little deatail is considered.

if a second hand wt come up and i had the dough id buy it.

but im now after a sei fretless or jazz or may get a 5 string single cut headless built!!!!

it does seem though that alot of peolpe love the overwaters so i reckon go have a play for a day!!!!!!!

[ThomBassmonkey]

[quote name='BigRedX' post='1334655' date='Aug 10 2011, 10:36 AM']If there are no Overwaters with the specifications you want then an Overwater is not for you.

The trick with getting a custom instrument how you want it is to pick a luthier who is already making something very close to it. There are plenty of custom builders out there so somewhere will be the right person to make your bass.[/quote]

The whole point of custom builds is to build something that isn't already available with the desired specifications, surely.

There's been some good custom builds around that are unusual for the builders, a Shuker fanned fret sticks in my head for example.

Besides, the OP didn't say what specifications he wanted that weren't availabe in the for sale forum here, it could've been something simple like a nice top or board rather than something totally different.

[bassjamm]

[quote name='BigRedX' post='1334655' date='Aug 10 2011, 10:36 AM']If there are no Overwaters with the specifications you want then an Overwater is not for you.

The trick with getting a custom instrument how you want it is to pick a luthier who is already making something very close to it. There are plenty of custom builders out there so somewhere will be the right person to make your bass.[/quote]

I understand what you're saying here, but in this case it doesn't really apply I don't think.

I'm considering a 33" scale neck which I know Overwater have made with good results. I believe that Wood & Tronics are more familiar with this scale length. Ideally I'd be ordering a Fodera but that isn't an option for me.

So far I've been really impressed with Enrico from W&T, he's really been helpful and he certainly seems to get where I'm coming from. It would appear that I'm after what he considers to be his ideal bass too. That is a massive plus as he'll be able to interpret what I'm saying into luthier talk.

That having been said, Laurence at Overwater has also made himself very available to me and I should be talking with him tomorrow. I'm very tempted by the Overwater's simply based on their feel from previous experiences. But I think I'd want to dabble with different pickups and electronics, not the standard Overwater ones. I'm not sure if this is something they'll be too keen on necessarily, and if that's the case, I'm not sure how forth coming they'll be on suggestions as they don't use other manufacturers equipment as the norm. Wood & Tronics seem to help the buyer select what's best for them and their ideal sound.

All in all, this is a massive decision as I obviously don't want to blow £2-3k on something I'm not happy with or not 110% sure about obviously!

Thanks for all the input folks...

Jamie

[chris_b]

[quote name='bassjamm' post='1335912' date='Aug 10 2011, 11:33 PM']....But I think I'd want to dabble with different pickups and electronics, not the standard Overwater ones. I'm not sure if this is something they'll be too keen on necessarily....[/quote]
If you're paying they'll be keen!

[dmccombe7]

Something else to consider is location.
If the luthier is nearby its far easier to visit and see how your bass is progressing.

Easier to make minor changes during the build process than after completion.

Is there a specific reason for 33" scale. ?
I went from 34" on my other basses to 35" scale on the Overwater and didn't feel any difference to be honest.


Dave

Edited August 11, 2011 by dmccombe7

[BigRedX]

[quote name='bassjamm' post='1335912' date='Aug 10 2011, 11:33 PM']But I think I'd want to dabble with different pickups and electronics, not the standard Overwater ones. I'm not sure if this is something they'll be too keen on necessarily, and if that's the case, I'm not sure how forth coming they'll be on suggestions as they don't use other manufacturers equipment as the norm.[/quote]
That right there is why Overwater probably won't be the right people to make your bass.

I speak from experience. The last custom bass I had made, I spent over a year researching different luthiers and getting in touch with the ones who appeared to be doing stuff I liked to see how receptive they were to the ideas that I had. In the end I found it easier to walk away from those who were uncomfortable about what I wanted because there was still a good number of luthiers whose instruments could accommodate my individual design requirements while still stay inside the "comfort zone" of the luthier building them.

That's not to say that Overwater couldn't build you the bass you wanted and for it to be everything that you hoped for, but once you persuade a luthier to try something different to what they usually do it's a step into the unknown for both of you.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='chris_b' post='1335926' date='Aug 11 2011, 12:03 AM']If you're paying they'll be keen![/quote]
Probably the very worst way to persuade someone to make a change to what they normally do when making an instrument and expect to get something that you're going to be happy with.

A good luthier will make your modifications because they also believe that it will result in a fantastic instrument that is just right for you, not simply because you are paying them for the work.

[eude]

[quote name='dmccombe7' post='1336076' date='Aug 11 2011, 09:11 AM']Is there a specific reason for 33" scale. ?
I went from 34" on my other basses to 35" scale on the Overwater and didn't feel any difference to be honest.


Dave[/quote]

Allow me to chime in...

I made the shift to 33" basses almost 5 years ago now, having played a 33" Fodera a while back and having a bit of an epiphany.
I'm a fairly small bloke and I've always struggled a bit with bass, having played 34" and even 36" basses in the past. Picking up what felt like an incredibly small and compact bass and getting all the tone and feel I would hope for from a regular bass was simply amazing!
Basses don't necessarily need to be big or heavy anymore and a decent luthier can make a low B on a shorter scale just as musical and effective as on a longer scale through construction techniques and wood and hardware choices.
When I had the opportunity to have my first custom bass built, I made sure to find someone who was happy to build a 33" scale one and I've never looked back.
As I mentioned I've played basses all the way up to 36" scale, ranging from £90 to well over £3000, not all of them mine, and on all of my 33" basses the low B has been as good as the best of the bunch.
I'm now on my 3rd and have another on the way.

The benefits I've noted are as follows
• less of stretch in the fretting hand as the frets are marginally closer together
• shorter reach for the fretting arm, as everything is shifted in an inch
• fuller and sweeter sounding upper register, especially on the higher strings
• ever so slightly more supple feel to the strings, not to everyone's taste however going up a gauge will sort that, I currently use regular gauge DRs

Now all of these are a real godsend for the "travel sized" bass player, but they're surely of benefit to everyone!

Cheers,
Eude

[mcgraham]

Both my W&T are 33" scale. Why? The first one came that way, and the second one I ordered I wanted to be the same. However, to be totally honest, I don't find that it makes much of a difference. There IS a difference (because 33" is not equal to 34") but I think that difference is over-egged. After a few years of going from 34" scale exclusively to playing these 33" basses exclusively with the odd dabble on 34" scale I can say that the slightly lower tension is definitely present (it's just maths) and perhaps subconsciously noticeable when you first pick it up (you can definitely discern it later on in playing time on the instruments), and although I KNOW the neck is slightly shorter (by that 1") I really don't notice the length difference when playing. I think the physical layout and design of the custom basses contributes far more to the comfort factor than that 1" scale difference.

In short, I think there is a difference, I'm fine with it but I don't think it should be a deal breaker for anyone.

[lozbass]

Not sure that anybody has touched on one of the issues embedded in the OP - my own view is that re-sale value on Overwaters is very poor indeed. I think that the same can probably be said for W&T. The instruments are rather individual (by definition with a serious custom, and just generally in the case of W&T given the basic model shapes) and this must have some impact on re-sale prices.

This isn't to say that both W&T and Overwater are not great basses. I've had several Overwaters with various configurations and each was extremely well-built and beautifully finished. I find all Overwaters to be rather big and chunky instruments - a very solid feel and plenty of mass. I haven't had much experience with W&T though the basses seem to be a bit dinkier than Overwaters. I have dealt with Enrico and found him to be very friendly, helpful and knowledgeable - I'm sure he could work with you towards your ideal bass.

If re-sale is/could be an important consideration, I'd honestly stay well clear of either O or W&T - some of the weakest used values I've seen (realistically, you'd seriously have to consider recovering only 40-50% after a year, especially in the current market).

[BigRedX]

IMO when ordering a custom bass re-sale value should be one of the lowest priorities on your list.

Unless you are ordering a fairly standard "super jazz" with 4 (or possibly 5) strings then your spec should be 100% geared towards giving you the bass you really want that no off-the-shelf model can give.

Given that the OP has already laid out some fairly non-standard specifications (33" scale being an important one) then I think that we can safely say that the resale market is going to be severely limited and therefore should be ignored.

IME when a custom bass is specified with one eye on its resale value it almost never completely satisfies the needs of the person ordering it and therefore unsurprising ends up being sold.

If you're going to get a custom bass be bold. Go for what you know you want.

[mcgraham]

+1 BRX - if you're ordering a custom instrument and worrying about the features making the resale poor, that should be an immediate warning that you are not in the right place (philosophically speaking) for a custom instrument.

That said, at least if he went down the 33" scale 5 string single cut route (which is a verrrry popular configuration for a not-off-the-shelf-custom config) then there are still select buyers out there who want this sort of instrument, so if you wanted to sell there is likely the right buyer out there... as is evidenced by this very thread.