HJ Williams - 5 string Jazz Bass

[STU-SBL]

Hi guys,

I thought I'd document the progress of my latest custom bass guitar.

If you're not already familiar with Haydn Williams, take a look at his web site [url="http://williamsguitars.co.uk"]Williams Guitars [/url]

Haydn has been the driving force behind the production of Overwater Bass Guitars for majority of the last 20 years and in this time he has developed into a very knowledgeable and talented guitar builder. Through my association with Overwater I developed a good friendship with Haydn and he has been involved in the production of all my basses, including guidance and help (lots) on the fretless J5 that my brother built while at Overwater.

Haydn has built a reputation in the UK as a top Acoustic and Electric guitar builder. His attention to detail and scarily high personal standards have produced some amazing instrument, most recently a number of electric guitars which are currently out for professional review.

Take a look at his work and a recent build diary: [url="http://williamsguitars.co.uk/news/"]Evo Pro Build Diary[/url]

Adding to his knowledge and skill with guitars, Haydn is also a talented and resourceful engineer; having built his own CNC machine. This is where the project begins!

I have played guitar and bass for almost 20 years now and while I am lucky to have a number of top end instruments (and plenty of other nice basses along the way) I am drawn to the building and design side. While I could pick up the tools required and have a go, I'd rather leave it to those who have the skill and patience required to turn ideas into playable instruments - not just pieces of interesting looking wood.

Therefore, last week I went along to Haydn's workshop and we spent time turning a two piece Ash blank into something resembling a Jazz bass body.

I'll update details, photos etc as it progresses. For now here are a few pictures of the CNC process. I also have video footage that I plan to post when edited.

[b]Rough Spec:[/b]

[b]Body:[/b] 2 Piece Swamp Ash
[b]Neck :[/b] 1 Piece Figured Maple
[b]Board:[/b] Maple (Blocks)
[b]Machines:[/b] Hipshot Ultralite
[b]Bridge:[/b] Hipshot Style A
[b]Electronics:[/b] J Retro Deluxe
[b]Pickups:[/b] Wizard 64

I imagine bits and pieces will change as we work on the bass... so don't hold me to the spec above

UPDATE: Go to [b][url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/149983-hj-williams-5-string-jazz-bass/page__st__20"]page 2[/url][/b] for up to date pictures of the build.

Edited November 13, 2011 by bleedproof

[eude]

Very nice mate.
Will be watching this thread with interest

Eude

[JPJ]

[quote name='bleedproof' post='1335034' date='Aug 10 2011, 02:11 PM']Adding to his knowledge and skill with guitars, Haydn is also a talented and resourceful engineer; [b]having built his own CNC machine[/b]. This is where the project begins![/quote]

Ooh, fascinating! Looking forward to more photos and the video. Nice piece of swamp ash btw.

[STU-SBL]

[quote name='JPJ' post='1335118' date='Aug 10 2011, 02:54 PM']Ooh, fascinating! Looking forward to more photos and the video. Nice piece of swamp ash btw.[/quote]

It certainly is an impressive piece of machinery. There are a couple of videos of Haydns CNC in action already - I'll try and get permission to use them here until I have mine finished.

Haydn's also done a fair bit of work for a number of other guitar builders and manufacturers - some you will know.

Stu

[STU-SBL]

Demo of Haydn's CNC cutting guitar body - new videos coming soon

[Owen]

That's proper nuts. I am loving it.

[STU-SBL]

[quote name='owen' post='1335731' date='Aug 10 2011, 09:30 PM']That's proper nuts. I am loving it.[/quote]

It is

While CNC use in guitar building is nothing new, this application is 100% homegrown and designed for the job!

In some of the shots you can see the white base board - this holds the blank in place via suction - I made that one for the job it was like Blue Peter.

The neck construction is going to be a little different. Not your usual J neck, but definitely vintage inspired.

[Mikeg]

Looking great
How much would one of these CNC machines set me back?

[STU-SBL]

I have no idea Mikeg... I imagine building your own is more cost effective than purchasing one from a 3rd party - assuming you have the time and skill. I know I'd struggle

Haydn was talking about registering here. I'll try and persuade him to chip in from time to time.

Stu

Edited August 11, 2011 by bleedproof

[JPJ]

[quote name='bleedproof' post='1335300' date='Aug 10 2011, 05:06 PM']Demo of Haydn's CNC cutting guitar body - new videos coming soon

[/quote]

Ok, I really shouldnt have watched that, now I've got serious gas for a three-axis CNC machine

In truth though, given that you can achieve results just as good with a hand router and good templates/jigs, I can only imagine that this is a worthwhile investment if your: a) going to make a lot of guitars or basses; or have another use in mind (fine furniture etc).

[henry norton]

[quote name='JPJ' post='1336384' date='Aug 11 2011, 01:28 PM']Ok, I really shouldnt have watched that, now I've got serious gas for a three-axis CNC machine

In truth though, given that you can achieve results just as good with a hand router and good templates/jigs, I can only imagine that this is a worthwhile investment if your: a) going to make a lot of guitars or basses; or have another use in mind (fine furniture etc).[/quote]
All the original Fenders were made using jigs and pin routers. The main advantage of CNC is that you can be doing something else whilst the machine is doing the not so interesting bits. I'd have a CNC like that one if I had the space, but if I had a platen that size I'd be doing 4 bodies at a time!

[STU-SBL]

[quote name='JPJ' post='1336384' date='Aug 11 2011, 01:28 PM']In truth though, given that you can achieve results just as good with a hand router and good templates/jigs, I can only imagine that this is a worthwhile investment if your: a) going to make a lot of guitars or basses; or have another use in mind (fine furniture etc).[/quote]


I think consistency and time saving are the number one use of a CNC in guitars / bass production. While no two instruments will be exactly alike, making sure that everything fits before hand tooling is employed is vital - of course this, as you have rightly said can be achieved equally with jigs and a hand router, However jigs do wear out and I know this to be a big problem at times.

For me, this build is not solely about the use of CNC. I know many builders shy away from publicising it's use as the term handmade, artisan etc can soon be watered down if their process is aided by a computer.

I love the fact that I can see the bass before the first plunge of the router has been made. I am a designer by trade and as I mentioned in a previous post, would love to build musical instruments - but realised that I was best equipped to stay on the design side and leave the pointy, potentially deadly things alone.

Because of this I want to document the use of CAD, CNC and traditional hand-tooling in the process of realising my design ideas and aspirations for a traditional, familiar bass guitar.

I would urge anyone interested to take a look at Haydn's site to see the use of CNC and traditional hand tooling.

[url="http://www.williamsguitars.co.uk"]Williams Guitars[/url]

I hope this doesn't sound like a soap box rant I appreciate all input and will give my honest opinion throughout the process.

Stu

Edited August 11, 2011 by bleedproof

[STU-SBL]

[quote name='henry norton' post='1336420' date='Aug 11 2011, 01:57 PM']I'd have a CNC like that one if I had the space, but if I had a platen that size I'd be doing 4 bodies at a time![/quote]

[JPJ]

[quote name='henry norton' post='1336420' date='Aug 11 2011, 01:57 PM']All the original Fenders were made using jigs and pin routers. The main advantage of CNC is that you can be doing something else whilst the machine is doing the not so interesting bits. I'd have a CNC like that one if I had the space, but if I had a platen that size I'd be doing 4 bodies at a time![/quote]

"Not so interesting bits"? For me the wood butchery part is the most interesting, whereas the hours and hours in the company of sandpaper is the bit that I find boring

[JPJ]

[quote name='bleedproof' post='1336434' date='Aug 11 2011, 02:08 PM']However jigs do wear out and I know this to be a big problem at times.[/quote]

True, but I suppose that depends on how many times the jig is used?

[quote name='bleedproof' post='1336434' date='Aug 11 2011, 02:08 PM']I hope this doesn't sound like a soap box rant I appreciate all input and will give my honest opinion throughout the process.

Stu[/quote]

Not at all, and given the skill and amount of time that can go into developing the CNC programme to cut those lovely curves means that for me, CNC doesnt detract from the 'artisan' aspect.

As you probably know, one of my basses is an Overwater. What makes it different from my Fender and Musicman is the quality of the finish, and by that I mean how the bass feels not how it looks. If companies had to use hand routers and jigs to build every bass then the cost would be astronomical. For example, the body of my current project took two days to machine allowing for building the jigs/templates and actually machining the wood whereas the one in your video took 8 minutes! If, for comparison, we say it took me a day to make my jigs/templates and Hayden a day to programme the CNC, he's still around 8 hours of production time better off than me.

Great thread, and I'm really looking forward to watching this one develop.

[STU-SBL]

[quote name='JPJ' post='1337346' date='Aug 12 2011, 10:37 AM']"True, but I suppose that depends on how many times the jig is used?"[/quote]

With something like a vintage Jazz shape lots


[quote name='JPJ' post='1337346' date='Aug 12 2011, 10:37 AM']Not at all, and given the skill and amount of time that can go into developing the CNC programme to cut those lovely curves means that for me, CNC doesnt detract from the 'artisan' aspect.[/quote]

I agree. There's a whole new level of skill required to make the machinery work - not to mention the time it takes to learn how to do do all the clever things you can do with a CNC.

I'm looking forward to see how this project turns out. Unlike my other basses, this one doesn't have a rigid spec sheet!

Stu

Edited August 12, 2011 by bleedproof

[henry norton]

[quote name='JPJ' post='1337329' date='Aug 12 2011, 10:26 AM']"Not so interesting bits"? For me the wood butchery part is the most interesting, whereas the hours and hours in the company of sandpaper is the bit that I find boring[/quote]
Ha! yes that's true 'til you start running off four at a time. It's interesting as even some quite small concerns use CNC to carve bodies and necks these days, whereas even the largest still rely on a person with fine sandpaper and a buffing machine to handle the finishing. It shows where the value is, whether that's real value or just perceived I suppose is up to the buyer. But yes, I could spend all day carving bits of wood if only it would make me money

[henry norton]

[quote name='bleedproof' post='1337370' date='Aug 12 2011, 10:56 AM']I agree. There's a whole new level of skill required to make the machinery work - not to mention the time it takes to learn how to do do all the clever things you can do with a CNC.[/quote]

The software is already there to make these things work, as well as some fairly good plans for DIY'ers to make their own CNC routers. The real difficulty IMO is interpreting the sweeping, compound curves of a guitar into a CAD drawing without it coming out looking like a childs toy or a GCSE project. I've always been particularly impressed with people who can draw a realistic carved top on CAD, as well as getting the shape and form just right.

[JPJ]

[quote name='henry norton' post='1337400' date='Aug 12 2011, 11:15 AM']The software is already there to make these things work, as well as some fairly good plans for DIY'ers to make their own CNC routers. The real difficulty IMO is interpreting the sweeping, compound curves of a guitar into a CAD drawing without it coming out looking like a childs toy or a GCSE project. I've always been particularly impressed with people who can draw a realistic carved top on CAD, as well as getting the shape and form just right.[/quote]

There are companies that can take a prototype and 'scan' this into your chosen CNC language, thus removing the 'drawing' stage. A sort of modern day equivilent of the old duplicating lathes/mills etc.

[henry norton]

[quote name='JPJ' post='1337540' date='Aug 12 2011, 12:47 PM']There are companies that can take a prototype and 'scan' this into your chosen CNC language, thus removing the 'drawing' stage. A sort of modern day equivilent of the old duplicating lathes/mills etc.[/quote]
Sounds interesting. I might look into that. Anyway, I'm going to stop hijacking this thread now

[STU-SBL]

Just a quick update to let you know that this build is still in progress.

We have taken the time to make sure that everything is just right. Haydn is working on the neck and has finished the body (excluding finish - TBC) - he's a very busy man!

There is a build diary over on [b][url="http://williamsguitars.co.uk/workshop-news/j-bass-build-update/?utm_source=basschat&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=j-build-diary"]www.williamsguitars.co.uk[/url][/b] take a look for an accurate explanation of the work he has carried out so far. I'm also getting John East to upgrade a J Retro Deluxe I had put aside for this build.

For now here's a picture of the body.

[STU-SBL]

Just another quick update.

The neck stock has now been cut to the required size, sanded and the scarf joint cut and glued. For the reason behind using an angled headstock on this Jazz bass take a look at the latest blog from [b][url="http://williamsguitars.co.uk/workshop-news/j-bass-build-progresses/"]Williams Guitars[/url][/b].

I'm really looking forward to see how the neck and body look together. I've had the maple blank for a long time and it was originally selected, cut and planed to size by my brother when he worked for Overwater. This should look great next to the two piece body which has lovely grain - ash can sometimes be devoid of close grain which I dislike on trans finishes.

The neck will now be cut to size on the CNC - measurements taken from my existing instruments which all have a similar neck profile. However, it is all about how it feels in the hand.

Until next time!

[Kiwi]

CNC milling doesn't necessarily result in time saving if you factor in the time it takes to set the CNC up. What it IS good for though is long runs of the same component. This process also requires a high degree of precision for things like neck pockets. While its possible to do everything in CAD or a 3D program like 3D Studio, materials tolerances can be particularly difficult to judge unless someone experienced is doing the set up or final fit is carried out by hand.

I've been looking into it for a little research project I'm working on at the moment. I may well end up doing a master by hand and then getting it 3D laser scanned as there will be some tricky radiussing involved which I can't do on the computer. It will let me test tolerances for fit.

Gibson do all of their bodies on CNC mills, they 3d laser scanned a les paul, cleaned up the point data a little and now just shove the blanks in one end and take out the bodies from the other. I think Warwick do as well. The bloke who makes Martin Taylors jazz archtops uses CNC milling to do the arched tops and gets fantastic results.

A CNC mill can set you back between 3000 quid for a 3 axis benchtop imported from the US, to well over 75,000 quid for a fully enclosed 5 axis job. There are ways for someone to built their own 3 axis mill out of MDF as well...