MarkBass and Stingray owners - what settings?

[Linus27]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' post='1341239' date='Aug 15 2011, 10:05 PM']Yep , You should hear the EBS pre amp in my jazz, It's twice as huge! Just use less bass on the amp. You will find the majority of long-term ray players on bc use the controls like that especially on the 2 EQ, general opinions bass on full and use the treble pot like a tone pot.[/quote]

Blimey Ok well I will give that a go also.

[stingrayPete1977]

I think putting the hottest signal in and tweaking the amp to taste sounds better than putting a low signal in and boosting it with the amp. If you put a cheap P bass copy through my Shuttle and 2x12T with the active EQ boosting it then it will sound great, Take home the P and put it through a 30watt practice amp then compare it to a USA P through the same amp and the USA will blow it away. What I'm trying to say I think is if you've got it flaunt it

I believe Louis Johnsons Ray was modded by Leo Fender for even more output!

[Musicman20]

Hopefully you are getting closer to where you want to be.

For me, MB and Rays work amazingly well.

I have to say, ive come FULL circle on the Genz Streamliner. Im going to source a LM3 as well, but the STL900 is SO smooth, thick, vintage, with a sweet top end. Its not flat all at 12...its more like bass at 10, mids at 1-2, treble at 12 = flat. But, even when you crank the mids or treble right up on the amp, its still nice! That's a massive shock from what Im used to.

Keep the VLF to a minimum, its more like a mid scoop and increases bass/highs.

Listen to the Ed F Classic review. Exactly the same pre-amp, and yes, its boost/cut, apparently.

I find the 3EQ easier to EQ...although I do like the 2EQ.

[nottswarwick]

This is what I used to do-

Amp- all 4 eqs at 12 o clock, often a slight bass cut to around 5 to and sometimes the same slight cut on the low mid.

Sometimes a touch of vpf but not much.

Sr4 all flat maybe a slight on gig adjustment here and there but never much.

[Linus27]

[quote name='nottswarwick' post='1341359' date='Aug 15 2011, 11:50 PM']This is what I used to do-

Amp- all 4 eqs at 12 o clock, often a slight bass cut to around 5 to and sometimes the same slight cut on the low mid.

Sometimes a touch of vpf but not much.

Sr4 all flat maybe a slight on gig adjustment here and there but never much.[/quote]

I think this is the way I am going with it at the moment.

[Prime_BASS]

[quote name='Linus27' post='1341488' date='Aug 16 2011, 08:50 AM']I think this is the way I am going with it at the moment.[/quote]

Don't get to disheartened with it's apparent "nasally" sound, in a live situation or in a mix alot of this goes away and somehow turns into "prescence" in the mix.

I have my F1 everything at 12'oclock, VPF and VLE filters off (12o'clcok isnt "flat" it's half way on!) some treble boost on the ray(sterling same and the BigAl has everything slightly boost and bass slightly cut) and the mid and bass flat.
I realise again this is a 3eq. However a similar result should be gained from having the treble and bass pots on a centre position (IIRC 3eqs bass is still boost only)

I would strongly recommend not using the VPF at all, or very sparingly! Once it reaches the 11'oclock you start losing considerable amount of mid prescence, especially as the control boosts the lows and highs further creating a mid scoop!

Mid scoop is bad for a cutting bass sound, especially if you want the "basses" character to come through aswell.

Other things come in to play aswell, like pickup bight and strings etc.

[Linus27]

[quote name='Prime_BASS' post='1341814' date='Aug 16 2011, 12:56 PM']Don't get to disheartened with it's apparent "nasally" sound, in a live situation or in a mix alot of this goes away and somehow turns into "prescence" in the mix.

I have my F1 everything at 12'oclock, VPF and VLE filters off (12o'clcok isnt "flat" it's half way on!) some treble boost on the ray(sterling same and the BigAl has everything slightly boost and bass slightly cut) and the mid and bass flat.
I realise again this is a 3eq. However a similar result should be gained from having the treble and bass pots on a centre position (IIRC 3eqs bass is still boost only)

I would strongly recommend not using the VPF at all, or very sparingly! Once it reaches the 11'oclock you start losing considerable amount of mid prescence, especially as the control boosts the lows and highs further creating a mid scoop!

Mid scoop is bad for a cutting bass sound, especially if you want the "basses" character to come through aswell.

Other things come in to play aswell, like pickup bight and strings etc.[/quote]

I will try all this tonight. My only concern is that with everything flat, it sounds hideous. Dull, flat, boxy and nasaly and in a really horrible way. The first thing I do to improve this is turn the low mid down to about 10 - 11 o'clock. This removes the nasal tone that I really can't stand. I then find adding a little VPF adds some punch and clarity. Maybe I will try it at around 9 o'clock and then use the treble on the Ray to add the sparkle.

[51m0n]

[quote name='Linus27' post='1341892' date='Aug 16 2011, 01:52 PM']I will try all this tonight. My only concern is that with everything flat, it sounds hideous. Dull, flat, boxy and nasaly and in a really horrible way. The first thing I do to improve this is turn the low mid down to about 10 - 11 o'clock. This removes the nasal tone that I really can't stand. [b]I then find adding a little VPF adds some punch and clarity[/b]. Maybe I will try it at around 9 o'clock and then use the treble on the Ray to add the sparkle.[/quote]


No it doesnt, it removes mid at 380Hz. It is a mid-scoop filter. Period.

Thats a VERY different thing indeed from adding punch, especially in the mix!

You need low mid in the mix its 2nd and 3rd harmonics of your main low bass notes, the human ear picks up on these far easier than it does deep bass (ie fundamentals).

I dont give a rats backside how awful it may sound on its own, and neither should you, it only matters what it sounds like at gig volumes in a mix.

Have a go at a reahearsal at proper volume, your perception of bass is radically different at those volumes than at bedroom volumes. The right way to do thios is to set your sound up as you like it and record it (oom H2 or similar) at a rehearsal, then dial out the VPF completely and try again. Then set it to a compromise 'sensible setting' (ie not more than 9 O'clock) if you have to have it. The dialled out version will sit in the mix with more presence and require less bass boost to be 'heard'.

Put simply, to your audience it means they hear more bass the more mids you can live with.

[Linus27]

[quote name='51m0n' post='1341910' date='Aug 16 2011, 02:03 PM']No it doesnt, it removes mid at 380Hz. It is a mid-scoop filter. Period.

Thats a VERY different thing indeed from adding punch, especially in the mix!

You need low mid in the mix its 2nd and 3rd harmonics of your main low bass notes, the human ear picks up on these far easier than it does deep bass (ie fundamentals).

I dont give a rats backside how awful it may sound on its own, and neither should you, it only matters what it sounds like at gig volumes in a mix.

Have a go at a reahearsal at proper volume, your perception of bass is radically different at those volumes than at bedroom volumes. The right way to do thios is to set your sound up as you like it and record it (oom H2 or similar) at a rehearsal, then dial out the VPF completely and try again. Then set it to a compromise 'sensible setting' (ie not more than 9 O'clock) if you have to have it. The dialled out version will sit in the mix with more presence and require less bass boost to be 'heard'.

Put simply, to your audience it means they hear more bass the more mids you can live with.[/quote]

Ok will try that also. What I will add though is my bedroom volume is my rehearsal volume as I play in an acoustic band so no drums

I also record all our regearsals with a Tascam recorder but I will tonight with no VPF and again at 9 o'clock. However, I have been down this road before and found that the bass was lost when I added VPF so I think I am falling into that trap again of it sounding great on its own but being lost among the acoustic guitars. I should know better really Maybe I will try everything flat with the low mid at 10 - 11 o'clock and boost some of the treble on the Ray and see how that sounds.

[JTUK]

Well, I certainly give a rats arse what it sounds like solo...so wouldn't advise anyone to have a sound they dislike.
If you dislike the sound, you probably can't play with it well either... and that affects everything else.
A very nasually sound can be a pig to play with and control.. and how are you going to know if that travels well?

Set the bass up for a sound you play, not having drums doesn't help much as you could align your sound with the kick. If you want it to sit..mimic the kick sound...ish...it you want it to be more than that... add something that will seperate and differeniate.
I stay away from getting a honking sound..and if I want that type of thing, I'll let the bridge pickup do it.
That is not so easy on a MM....

A MM will sound good..if you add no more than a touch of bass, and a bit more treble.
Go nowhere near half way on the dial for either...IMO.
The Bass sounds there or there abouts now... now go to the amp. Start with the filters and I doubt you'll need to do much more with any onther controls..

Bass players think that mids are the be-all and end-all... but they are hardest to control and easy to make sound crap.
Most people shouldn't be let near them..amps makers know this..which is why they use these timbre controls now...!!

Mids come into things when you core sound is good..and you want to add a bit of cut...
You do this rather than use volume..but you should be very sparing with it, IMO.

[Linus27]

I feel like I have opened up a right can of worms here

[stingrayPete1977]

If I'm going through a DI then foh sounds good with the bass on full IME but I guess we are all doing different things and playing different styles of music so there is not going to be a one size fits all answer that's before you factor in the acoustics of the venue.

[51m0n]

[quote name='JTUK' post='1341991' date='Aug 16 2011, 03:12 PM']Well, I certainly give a rats arse what it sounds like solo...so wouldn't advise anyone to have a sound they dislike.
If you dislike the sound, you probably can't play with it well either... and that affects everything else.
A very nasually sound can be a pig to play with and control.. and how are you going to know if that travels well?

Set the bass up for a sound you play, not having drums doesn't help much as you could align your sound with the kick. If you want it to sit..mimic the kick sound...ish...it you want it to be more than that... add something that will seperate and differeniate.
I stay away from getting a honking sound..and if I want that type of thing, I'll let the bridge pickup do it.
That is not so easy on a MM....

A MM will sound good..if you add no more than a touch of bass, and a bit more treble.
Go nowhere near half way on the dial for either...IMO.
The Bass sounds there or there abouts now... now go to the amp. Start with the filters and I doubt you'll need to do much more with any onther controls..

Bass players think that mids are the be-all and end-all... but they are hardest to control and easy to make sound crap.
Most people shouldn't be let near them..amps makers know this..which is why they use these timbre controls now...!!

Mids come into things when you core sound is good..and you want to add a bit of cut...
You do this rather than use volume..but you should be very sparing with it, IMO.[/quote]

How much of your gig is solo bass?

With all due respect, if you answer 'not much' then the sound of the bass solo doesnt matter, its not what you will hear playing, its not what the audience will hear, and its one of the single most common mistakes made by bassists and mix engineers when they are learning the craft of mixing.

What matters is the interaction of the whole, all the instruments and how they meet, mingle and sit together.

You can get the worlds most amazing bass tone, and in the mix it will completely disappear, because what you like about it solo is running headlong into other instruments that produce those same frequencies but louder. Either that or you will mask those intruments making a bass heavy mix that is unclear for punters.

How many gigs have you been to and thought "I cant make out the bass, but the kick drum is SLAMMING" ??

I did not say mids are easy to control (I said the opposite), and too much is nasal, you're right. But, if you use something like a VPF (which has 16dB of cut ffs) you are going to wreck any chance you have of creating an audible consistent mix. Not the bass. The mix. The audience are listening to the mix, you are listening to the bass. If you cut all the mids you will not hear the bass as easily, if you dont cut enough (for you) you wont like the tone. The point is if you set the bass up at gigging volumes how I suggested and really use your ears and not your eyes you will almost certainly find that you are heard more clearly, fight less of the rest of the instruments, dont like the solo sound as much, and have more mids.

Here endeth the lesson

[Linus27]

So a bit more fiddling tonight and this is what I have settled with so far.

MB Combo

Bass: 12 o' Clock (FLAT)
Mid Low: 10 o' Clock
Mid High: 12 o' Clock (FLAT)
Treble: 12 o' Clock (FLAT)
VLE Filter: OFF
VPF Filter: 8 o'clock

Stingray

Volume: Full
Treble: 50%
Bass: 20%

This sounded very clean and balanced and very close to the sound I am after. I could get it to sound good with no VPF filter but to my ears it sounded a little sweeter and less nasaly with a little turned on.

I could also get it to sound very good with Pete's suggestion on turning the bass to full on the Ray but it did make the sound very big. I also had to put the treble on the Ray to about 60% and turn the bass on the MarkBass down to about 10 o'clock but the good thing is it was workable.

I have rehearsal tonight which I will record so I will be trying these settings and reporting back. Going to try with no VPF at some point.

Can I just say this thread has been brilliant. So very helpful and such a great wealth of knowledge. Thanks so far everyone for your input. I am determined to get a decent sound from my Stingray.

Edited August 16, 2011 by Linus27

[JTUK]

[quote name='51m0n' post='1342199' date='Aug 16 2011, 06:06 PM']How much of your gig is solo bass?

With all due respect, if you answer 'not much' then the sound of the bass solo doesnt matter, its not what you will hear playing, its not what the audience will hear, and its one of the single most common mistakes made by bassists and mix engineers when they are learning the craft of mixing.

What matters is the interaction of the whole, all the instruments and how they meet, mingle and sit together.

You can get the worlds most amazing bass tone, and in the mix it will completely disappear, because what you like about it solo is running headlong into other instruments that produce those same frequencies but louder. Either that or you will mask those intruments making a bass heavy mix that is unclear for punters.

How many gigs have you been to and thought "I cant make out the bass, but the kick drum is SLAMMING" ??

I did not say mids are easy to control (I said the opposite), and too much is nasal, you're right. But, if you use something like a VPF (which has 16dB of cut ffs) you are going to wreck any chance you have of creating an audible consistent mix. Not the bass. The mix. The audience are listening to the mix, you are listening to the bass. If you cut all the mids you will not hear the bass as easily, if you dont cut enough (for you) you wont like the tone. The point is if you set the bass up at gigging volumes how I suggested and really use your ears and not your eyes you will almost certainly find that you are heard more clearly, fight less of the rest of the instruments, dont like the solo sound as much, and have more mids.

Here endeth the lesson [/quote]


I am listening to the bass because I have to play it. It doesn't matter if I only have so many bars where it is pretty much a bass as this will define the tone in peoples mind. Burying it in a mix is one thing... to have it so out of shape is the way to get yourself not rebooked.

You might not approach this that way if you don't do playing gigs and only mix them but to foster a bass sound because it is easy for you at the detriment of the bass is ridiculous and will not get you any favours from the band.

I honestly have to say I doubt if I need any lessons from you, thanks.

[stingrayPete1977]

Big is good Linus

[Linus27]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' post='1342262' date='Aug 16 2011, 06:52 PM']Big is good Linus [/quote]

Ooooh sir, you like them large do you

[51m0n]

[quote name='JTUK' post='1342258' date='Aug 16 2011, 06:47 PM']I am listening to the bass because I have to play it. It doesn't matter if I only have so many bars where it is pretty much a bass as this will define the tone in peoples mind. Burying it in a mix is one thing... to have it so out of shape is the way to get yourself not rebooked.

You might not approach this that way if you don't do playing gigs and only mix them but to foster a bass sound because it is easy for you at the detriment of the bass is ridiculous and will not get you any favours from the band.

I honestly have to say I doubt if I need any lessons from you, thanks.[/quote]


ROFL, fine, okeedokee, have it your way squire, no problem, silly old me, no idea about live gigs, only ever mix, thats me. Right ho!

The point I am trying to explain is that what you are doing is burying bass in the mix, or having to have it way louder than it should be in order to hear it, to the detriment of the mix burying other instrumetns in its place. Which is a great way not to get rebooked! Presenting a well strutured whole with everything audible is the goal, not getting a fantastic solo bass sound at the detriment of the band.

You would do well to read up a bit on mixing in general though, particularly frequency mixing, I think it would help you and your band to sound better as a unit. Dont feel you have to, after all you clearly know what you like, go for it knock yourself out....

[risingson]

[quote name='51m0n' post='1342346' date='Aug 16 2011, 08:05 PM']ROFL, fine, okeedokee, have it your way squire, no problem, silly old me, no idea about live gigs, only ever mix, thats me. Right ho!

The point I am trying to explain is that what you are doing is burying bass in the mix, or having to have it way louder than it should be in order to hear it, to the detriment of the mix burying other instrumetns in its place. Which is a great way not to get rebooked! Presenting a well strutured whole with everything audible is the goal, not getting a fantastic solo bass sound at the detriment of the band.

You would do well to read up a bit on mixing in general though, particularly frequency mixing, I think it would help you and your band to sound better as a unit. Dont feel you have to, after all you clearly know what you like, go for it knock yourself out....[/quote]

My 2p on this subject. I think it's important to have some knowledge on what's required from you as a bass player in terms of what you sound like live. No good burying every other member of your band with a loud, mulchy bass sound and equally no point in having a bass sound that's totally lost in the mix. However you rarely approach both if you have a good technician to work with. I'm no expert when it comes to stuff like this but I just use my brain and come to a logical conclusion as to what to do with my EQ on stage. After that, my sound almost always gets D.I'ed pre-EQ straight to the FOH desk and if the soundguy is any good at his job then he'll do the best he can with the overall mix and hopefully my bass sound will sit nicely amongst everything.

I feel that many bass players will work similarly to this if they have their practical heads screwed firmly on. I'm no technician, but I do know what works for me and my band and I never have any complaints about my sound. Most often though you're having to put your faith in someone else to come up with the solid dependable front of house mix, unless you're working by yourselves at a venue or event sans sound man.

[Prime_BASS]

What would help is:

How are gigs setup?
The amp doing all the work?
PA support? If so is the bass going straight to desk? Or mic'ing the cab using the DI on the amp(pre or post EQ)?
What sound are you after? What is the band as a whole aspiring to(sound wise)?

With out getting involved in an arguement...

I will simply say you should at least give "flat" a decent go, using the VPF is only losing all the nice stuff a good bass sound is made of.

Its easy for me to say what I do, but all I want from my Rig is a clear clean loud full range Sound. It's (IMO) a very versatile sound, however solo it can be perceived as nasal, but in a mix against the snare vocals and a strong guitar this translates into a punch and prescence.

[MartyBRebelMC]

I used to use a Stingray 5 (which i know has a different EQ) and a Markbass cd121p with matching NY121 cab and with this combination i left everything flat. It sounded dreadful on it's own but was perfect in the mix.

I think what 51m0n says about mids and the sound within the mix is totally spot on. I spent endless hours when i first started playing bass getting the EQ perfect at home only to find I could hear nothing when playing with the band and ended up turning the amp up so loud to try and hear myself but all you could hear was indistinct rumbling and fret noise. The temptation in isolation is to scoop the mids and get a sort of "hifi" sound but I have yet to get this to translate in to anything audible in a gig situation.

This may be niave of me but I now tend to leave most EQ's well alone on hi end gear as I trust it's designed to produce a decent sound for performance without fiddling (I get heavy with the VPF filter when practicing at home but wouldn't touch it for a gig). Obviously the acoustics of a room will create issues but careful placement of your rig (where possible) often has more impact than EQ.

[Linus27]

Well rehearsal was very interesting. Played through the set with the settings posted above and it sounded alright. A little dark but generally good. We then played through the set again and this time I turned the VPF off and wow. The bass jumped out and had a lot more growl and attack. Still a little dark so I added about 10% more treble on the Ray and it just sounded so sweet. So this was my settings which I will try at the gig on Saturday.

MB Combo

Bass: 12 o' Clock (FLAT)
Mid Low: 10 o' Clock
Mid High: 12 o' Clock (FLAT)
Treble: 12 o' Clock (FLAT)
VLE Filter: OFF
VPF Filter: OFF

Stingray

Volume: Full
Treble: 60%
Bass: 20%

So after all that, apart from dialing the low mids off a bit, the MB combo works best flat and then set the treble and bass on the Ray to suit. Its been really helpful finding out how the 2EQ Preamp works.

Thanks again for all the advice. Has been a real success for me to finally get the Stingray working and sounding great.

[stingrayPete1977]

Cool man, You will creep that bass up over time Im sure but the main thing is that your happy

[nottswarwick]

Out of interest how does the 2eq work? I know there are no centre detents unlike the 3 EQ so what is flat?

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='nottswarwick' post='1342529' date='Aug 16 2011, 10:54 PM']Out of interest how does the 2eq work? I know there are no centre detents unlike the 3 EQ so what is flat?[/quote]

No one knows! bass is boost only so I guess all off is flat. Treble is boost and cut so I guess about the middle? Leo wasnt as fussy about knowing the details as much as us Basschatters If it sounded good then that was the important bit.

Which actually means on a 3 EQ the detent is not flat its half boost.

Edited August 16, 2011 by stingrayPete1977