Shops vs the internet

[EBS_freak]

Bit of a rant but hey, I'm in that mood.

So why is it when I try and give some shops my business and ask if they can get hold of certain bits and pieces (not of insignificant cost) they say that they can get hold of the bits but will need to give me a call back... but never do? I can't be bothered to chase things up if the shops aren't interested in a sale... so I do what everybody else seems to do - just go on line, point, click, credit card and wait for said products to arrive. Seems wrong that none of those people are interested in a sale.

I'm all for supporting the shops but they don't seem to help themselves... yet rant that the internet is killing them.

Beats me.

Will say at this point, I had my first dealings with Darren at the Bass Merchant and he was great. Said he could get said items but there would be a delay as he had just put in an order with the supplier so the delay I would experience would be considerable before they could put in another order. Great honesty - he said I should probably try elsewhere, but if all things fail, he could sort me out. Now that's going the extra mile (I would have hated to pay my cash only to wait for months and months...)

[TheGreek]

[quote name='EBS_freak' post='1343133' date='Aug 17 2011, 02:09 PM']Bit of a rant but hey, I'm in that mood.

So why is it when I try and give some shops my business and ask if they can get hold of certain bits and pieces (not of insignificant cost) they say that they can get hold of the bits but will need to give me a call back... but never do? I can't be bothered to chase things up if the shops aren't interested in a sale... so I do what everybody else seems to do - just go on line, point, click, credit card and wait for said products to arrive. Seems wrong that none of those people are interested in a sale.

I'm all for supporting the shops but they don't seem to help themselves... yet rant that the internet is killing them.

Beats me.

Will say at this point, I had my first dealings with Darren at the Bass Merchant and he was great. Said he could get said items but there would be a delay as he had just put in an order with the supplier so the delay I would experience would be considerable before they could put in another order. Great honesty - he said I should probably try elsewhere, but if all things fail, he could sort me out. Now that's going the extra mile (I would have hated to pay my cash only to wait for months and months...)[/quote]
Must agree - I find that many shops offer really poor customer service - and cite the internet as killing their trade..when they treat customers in the way they've just treated you it's no wonder buyers go online...

[icastle]

There have always been music shops like this, even before the internet.

For some reason, there seem to be a disturbingly large number of music shops who don't seem to have grasped the idea that the only thing that differentiates them from their competitors is the level of service and care they provide.
I've been into music shops where I have been told absolute garbage, had promises broken and been blantantly lied to.

It's not the internet that these shops should be worried about, it's decay from within that'll eventually finish them off.

Edited August 17, 2011 by icastle

[bartelby]

The only shop in Newport seems to think that charging the maximum they can for products is the way to keep people buying local.

I had buy a set of strings, fogot to order from stringbusters, so I popped into the shop. Online a set of nickel D'addario mediums is £14.30, in the shop £24.99 (you can get a twin pack online for £22 FFS!!).

They charge the RRP for instruments too.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='bartelby' post='1343183' date='Aug 17 2011, 02:41 PM']The only shop in Newport seems to think that charging the maximum they can for products is the way to keep people buying local.

I had buy a set of strings, fogot to order from stringbusters, so I popped into the shop. Online a set of nickel D'addario mediums is £14.30, in the shop £24.99 (you can get a twin pack online for £22 FFS!!).

They charge the RRP for instruments too.[/quote]

I guess strings are one of the very few regular sellers, so you have to make your money somewhere. Shops being retail establishments and all, charging the price recommended would also seem fair. Thing is, internet shops are a pain too, all about the second hand market. No income tax, no guarantee...

[dc2009]

I have to say the same. Many shops will do you a discount from their price (RRP or not) if you can pay cash or lump sum. I got a bit off my Warwick like that.

I was in the bass gallery and was just trying bits and pieces out, and noted a thunderbird gig bag I was interested in buying (not urgently) but had decided I would happily buy it from there if it was say £10-15 more than online (which I knew was as low as £40), given the friendly service I'd had in allowing me to try out a Dingwall and a Tanglewater. The gigbag was £70, which IMO is too much more than the competition and I said no thanks. Obviously not a big seller for them, but dv247 as an example, who I have had pleasant dealings with before, trade online and in shops too, and do it for about £42.

Incidentally unless I manage to work enough over the next uni year to afford a Sandberg, I think a Tanglewater CJ5 will probably be my next bass, and I'll gladly buy from the gallery.

Edited August 17, 2011 by dc2009

[flyfisher]

I reckon people only used shops because there was no alternative, so we've built up a sort of nostalgia about them. But the reality is that they're pretty crap really. They only stock a tiny proportion of the products available in their marketplace (how could they afford to do anything else?) so you have to traipse around lots of shops if you want to really check out what's available, which takes time and money. And even if they do normally stock it you can't be sure they will actually have stock on the day you decide to buy. And none of that even starts to address the overhead issues which increases prices.

These days we have the internet. We can browse through entire product ranges at the click of mouse in the comfort of our own homes. We can read product reviews from real people, we can see video demonstrations. If we buy, the goods are delivered to our door in a day or two and if we don't like them or change our mind we have a statutory right to return them for a full refund. And, of course, prices are generally lower because they don't have to support expensive property leases, staff and demo stock.

If both these options were available at the dawn of commerce then shops would never have got off the ground.

They've had a good head-start, so will take a while to die off, but remember that the web has only been with us for 20 years and we're now seeing a generation of consumers who've grown up with it and can't understand the point of shops.

I'll give shops another 20 years or so.

[Coilte]

I could not agree more with all that has been said so far. There has been lots of similar discussions on a local forum here in Ireland. The shops usually site over head costs as an excuse for their exorbitant prices, and for why they cant compete with the Internet. I suppose there is some truth in this, but absolutely no excuse for bad customer service, which costs nothing. It is this latter point that got the most complaints on the forum here. Lots of people said they would be willing to pay the extra money for good customer service as well as a follow up service. In the end most said that as well as been cheaper, it was less hassle to shop on line. I agree.

Edited August 17, 2011 by Coilte

[Benplaysbass]

I must admit I do all my music shopping online, out here in France we have a music shop near us but if you find them open your lucky. So unless I'm prepared to travel miles and not know if I'll get good service its internet for me.

[Nyl]

one thing that bugs me, is going into a shop for something basic only to be told they don't have it but can order it in, but if i go home and order it online it will be shipped to my house, and they don't seem to understand this.

I guess it comes down the original point that physical shops needs to offer more in terms of service then simple order fulfilment.

[dc2009]

[quote name='flyfisher' post='1343209' date='Aug 17 2011, 02:59 PM']I reckon people only used shops because there was no alternative, so we've built up a sort of nostalgia about them. But the reality is that they're pretty crap really. They only stock a tiny proportion of the products available in their marketplace (how could they afford to do anything else?) so you have to traipse around lots of shops if you want to really check out what's available, which takes time and money. And even if they do normally stock it you can't be sure they will actually have stock on the day you decide to buy. And none of that even starts to address the overhead issues which increases prices.

These days we have the internet. We can browse through entire product ranges at the click of mouse in the comfort of our own homes. We can read product reviews from real people, we can see video demonstrations. If we buy, the goods are delivered to our door in a day or two and if we don't like them or change our mind we have a statutory right to return them for a full refund. And, of course, prices are generally lower because they don't have to support expensive property leases, staff and demo stock.

If both these options were available at the dawn of commerce then shops would never have got off the ground.

They've had a good head-start, so will take a while to die off, but remember that the web has only been with us for 20 years and we're now seeing a generation of consumers who've grown up with it and can't understand the point of shops.

I'll give shops another 20 years or so.[/quote]

I personally think that for items such as musical instruments, effects and amplifiers, where trying them is so crucial to a sale, that the likes of GAK etc who offer a huge product range, but the facility to come and try them too will be the ones that survive. If I was Thomann I'd be investing in a warehouse in the UK and other countries where people could come and do just that.

The gallery is amazing for us bass players, and it's specialism will hopefully keep it going, but it'll never be a big music shop anyway, and nor do I think does it want to be.

[mrdreadful]

[quote name='dc2009' post='1343207' date='Aug 17 2011, 02:58 PM']Many shops will do you a discount from their price (RRP or not) if you can pay cash or lump sum.[/quote]



The (now closed down) shop I got my Jackson guitar from told me one price when I asked them to order it in... and then tried to slap an extra £150 on that when it came to actually buying it (with cash)! I told them quite bluntly that if they didn't charge me the price they said initially I'd take my business elsewhere. The extra £150 disappeared like magic!

The shop near me that has the best service also happens to be the newest... the other two can be okay but one kinda looks down on metalheads and the other will always try to sell you the most expensive thing rather than the thing you actually need.

[Marvin]

[quote name='dc2009' post='1343229' date='Aug 17 2011, 03:10 PM']I personally think that for items such as musical instruments, effects and amplifiers, where trying them is so crucial to a sale, that the likes of GAK etc who offer a huge product range, but the facility to come and try them too will be the ones that survive. If I was Thomann I'd be investing in a warehouse in the UK and other countries where people could come and do just that.

The gallery is amazing for us bass players, and it's specialism will hopefully keep it going, but it'll never be a big music shop anyway, and nor do I think does it want to be.[/quote]

Thoman don't need to establish a warehouse to come and try. The set up costs considering the relatively low catchment area just wouldn't make it worth it. Furthermore, under EU distance selling regs, the consumer is entitled to return the item, at the vendors expense, if they simply don't want it.

GAK is an established UK brand so offering a come and try facility incurs little extra cost to a warehouse that would already be there.

[bartelby]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='1343194' date='Aug 17 2011, 02:49 PM']I guess strings are one of the very few regular sellers, so you have to make your money somewhere. Shops being retail establishments and all, charging the price recommended would also seem fair. Thing is, internet shops are a pain too, all about the second hand market. No income tax, no guarantee...[/quote]



If the shop was large and in a prime location I could understand they might have large overheads, but it's a little shop in a street deviod of anything but kebab shops.

If they charged less they'd get more people buying from them. Other shops seem to manage it.
I know I'll not spend any money in there again.

Edited August 17, 2011 by bartelby

[Musicman20]

I intend to start using whatever shops I need to as I want to find the right Jazz. This may involved using returns services, etc...

I have been emailing GAK and found they respond pretty fast and with great prices. They have also offered to get new products and not ones on display.

[Delberthot]

I don't know if this has been posted before but it looks like the once mighty Bass Centre with their centrefold spreads in Bassist showing hundreds of basses don't seem to do amps any more.

In fact it looks like they only do their own Bass Collection range and accessories

I also think things like Ebay and this forum have been bad for shops as well, certainly for me, as we are able to buy something we fancy second hand. If we like it we keep it and if we don't we can generally get back what we paid for it. How else would I have been able to afford 70 odd basses over the past few years?

[longtimefred]

its an interesting point this one. I love my local music shops, mainly down to the guys that run them are good mates of mine. The problem i have is they never have the stuff in i want and tend to be very guitar based and sell basses as an extra so dont tend to specialize in bass stuff. I get the old "we can order it in" but like Nyl has said, i can go home, order it myself and save another trip to the shops.

I would love to support my local shops better than i do but i dont have the time. Plus most of the stuff i buy now ends up being off here. Cant think of a more specialized bass place

[Commando Jack]

[quote name='EBS_freak' post='1343133' date='Aug 17 2011, 02:09 PM']Said he could get said items but there would be a delay as he had just put in an order with the supplier so the delay I would experience would be considerable before they could put in another order. Great honesty - he said I should probably try elsewhere, but if all things fail, he could sort me out.[/quote]

I ordered an amp case from a local shop who did not tell me this. So I come back 2 weeks after paying my money to be told "oh yeah you see the way it works is that to get the product at a commercially viable rate, we have to put a bulk order in, so we have to wait until enough items from that supplier have been ordered before putting it in." I should have cancelled it but I was young and stupid. Thing took like 6 weeks, and was the wrong case. All in all a 2-3 months wait because of this draconian system when I could have had it in a matter of days at my leisure.

[quote name='Nyl' post='1343219' date='Aug 17 2011, 03:06 PM']one thing that bugs me, is going into a shop for something basic only to be told they don't have it but can order it in, but if i go home and order it online it will be shipped to my house, and they don't seem to understand this.[/quote]

This once worked in my favour as a local (different from the one above) ordered a drum kit in and actually saved me money because they took the hit on the postage of such a bulky item. Down-side is that you have to pay a deposit and I had to be pretty sure I wouldn't want to return it. What I don't like is this idea that you have to agree to buy something unseen - the opposite of what music shops supposedly pride themselves on. I understand why, but it just pushes you straight to internet sellers who will let you return an item, no questions asked if you don't like it.


[quote name='Johnston' post='1343277' date='Aug 17 2011, 03:38 PM']The likes of Thomanns will still survive because some of us live in areas that are just crap for trying gear.[/quote]

This.

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='flyfisher' post='1343209' date='Aug 17 2011, 02:59 PM']I reckon people only used shops because there was no alternative, so we've built up a sort of nostalgia about them. But the reality is that they're pretty crap really. They only stock a tiny proportion of the products available in their marketplace (how could they afford to do anything else?) so you have to traipse around lots of shops if you want to really check out what's available, which takes time and money. And even if they do normally stock it you can't be sure they will actually have stock on the day you decide to buy. And none of that even starts to address the overhead issues which increases prices.

These days we have the internet. We can browse through entire product ranges at the click of mouse in the comfort of our own homes. We can read product reviews from real people, we can see video demonstrations. If we buy, the goods are delivered to our door in a day or two and if we don't like them or change our mind we have a statutory right to return them for a full refund. And, of course, prices are generally lower because they don't have to support expensive property leases, staff and demo stock.

If both these options were available at the dawn of commerce then shops would never have got off the ground.

They've had a good head-start, so will take a while to die off, but remember that the web has only been with us for 20 years and we're now seeing a generation of consumers who've grown up with it and can't understand the point of shops.

I'll give shops another 20 years or so.[/quote]

See you in the dole queue.

[Musicman20]

If any store owners/workers can do a Basschat deal on a Fender Jazz/MB LM3/Tech 21 VT Bass V2 and match/beat GAK, im quite happy to shop with the specialist/smaller stores.

Im buying within the next few days...so let me know haha. The items will all be new, not ex demo.

Edited August 17, 2011 by Musicman20

[simon1964]

[quote name='bartelby' post='1343183' date='Aug 17 2011, 02:41 PM']The only shop in Newport seems to think that charging the maximum they can for products is the way to keep people buying local.

I had buy a set of strings, fogot to order from stringbusters, so I popped into the shop. Online a set of nickel D'addario mediums is £14.30, in the shop £24.99 (you can get a twin pack online for £22 FFS!!).

They charge the RRP for instruments too.[/quote]

TBF a lot of this will be down to a local independant not being able to buy bulk.

The online stores will buy thousands of packs of a particular brand and gauge because they will in turn sell thousands. That means that they buy at significantly lower prices and can rely on selling in bulk at low margains. Your local store in Newport will probably sell only one or two sets of bass strings a week so simply can't do that.

Realistically, local shops will never compete for price with online stores for strings. But that's no excuse for poor customer service - they should realise that were they can compete is on quality of service, and local goodwill.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='mrdreadful' post='1343231' date='Aug 17 2011, 03:10 PM']The (now closed down) shop I got my Jackson guitar from told me one price when I asked them to order it in... and then tried to slap an extra £150 on that when it came to actually buying it (with cash)! I told them quite bluntly that if they didn't charge me the price they said initially I'd take my business elsewhere. The extra £150 disappeared like magic![/quote]

I'd have walked out there and then, even after they took off the £150, because they were trying it on.

A deal is a deal - they broke it, the deal's off.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='1343329' date='Aug 17 2011, 04:22 PM']See you in the dole queue.[/quote]

No need for that, just need to adapt. Don't leave it too long though.

[bartelby]

[quote name='simon1964' post='1343345' date='Aug 17 2011, 04:37 PM']TBF a lot of this will be down to a local independant not being able to buy bulk.[/quote]

Yeah, I guess that's the biggest factor.

[quote name='simon1964' post='1343345' date='Aug 17 2011, 04:37 PM']Realistically, local shops will never compete for price with online stores for strings. But that's no excuse for poor customer service - they should realise that were they can compete is on quality of service, and local goodwill.[/quote]

and this is where they fail.

[Chris2112]

[quote name='bartelby' post='1343386' date='Aug 17 2011, 05:05 PM']and this is where they fail.[/quote]

To be fair, most of them have always seemed fairly poor at this but surely the rise of the internet would bring ths matter into sharp focus for them? I suppose a lot of shops these days sell online too. Guitar Guitar, for instance are happy enough to sell to you with very high prices in the shop or online!