Shops vs the internet

[nomis]

i work in a shop and we do our best to follow up every request and do out best to source parts for people, at the end of the day when im shoping i like face to face contact

[Len_derby]

I think the good shops will respond to the challenge, adapt and survive. As they deserve to. The s that don't will be gone. A bit like the pub scene really.
Internet shopping is all very well, but the weak link in the chain is the courier/delivery part. I often think that bit's on the brink of collapse. It looks like the writing's on the wall for Royal Mail and the whole sector is going to have a shake-up so in a couple of years time the comparative luxury of affordable home delivery may be gone.

[icastle]

[quote name='flyfisher' post='1343209' date='Aug 17 2011, 02:59 PM']I'll give shops another 20 years or so.[/quote]

I don't agree.

If you look at all other industries, there is only so much that many customers will accept.

Tesco were just another supermarket but are now seen by many as a plague on mankind.
Banks have started pulling their call centres back to the UK because we didn't like dealing with Mumbai.
Growing veg is something our grandparents did during the war and only 'old people' did it - not any more.

Humans are (generally) a social animal and will only take so much 'cold mechanisation' before they switch alliegences back to a more traditional set of values.

I agree that there needs to be a marked change in the attitudes and business models used in some music shops but I don't really foresee them (or any other retail sectors) dying out.

[flyfisher]

I agree that the home delivery thing can be the weak link for internet shopping, though I have to say I've not got any personal horror stories.

People being at work during the day can, of course, be a problem. But there are ways around that. I've seen secure 'delivery bin' products where a package can be left and then latched closed by the courier, ready for the owner to return home.

There's also a fairly new "safe deposit box" scheme. I'm not sure about the precise details, but my wife has recenly been buying stuff online and having it delivered to a 'locker' (like a left-luggage box at train stations) at our local Morrisons store. The online company emails the locker number and combination code and my wife collect the parcel on the way home from work.

Rural post offices could also offer a "box number" type collection service for people who work during the day. Might be some complications with opening hours, though our village shop stays open until 8pm to catch the passing trade from people coming home from work.

I'm sure there'll be loads of similar innovations in years to come.

The other downside about shops is that anyone working full time is mainly limited to shopping on a saturday - and who wants to waste a precious day off when they can order online at any time of day?

I've got no axe to grind against shops, I just can't see them surviving unless they can offer something very unique and appealing - and I can't think what that might be.

[NJE]

I think shops will have to evolve and some have already started. I used to despise Cranes in Cardiff, the staff were rude and had no smiles or enthusiasm, and they were always so overpriced. I hadn't been in there for a while and went in a couple of weekends ago while I was down there to try a P bass.

The guy I spoke to was really helpful and checked stock to see if they had any Squier CV's in when I asked instead of "no probably not mate", happily let me pick up a few basses and didnt pressure me or try and show me every slap riff he knew before handing me the bass.

The best bit of all though was the price of gear in there. I played 2 different fender precisions, a Jazz and an EBS Session 60 and all of them were approx £20 - £30 cheaper than I could find anywhere on the internet and I would have paid delivery on top on most cases. They also had seriously revamped their website and had some good used gear in.

They have redeemed themselves and I may even indulge in that Session 60 when I go back down in a couple of weeks.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='icastle' post='1343458' date='Aug 17 2011, 06:05 PM']Humans are (generally) a social animal and will only take so much 'cold mechanisation' before they switch alliegences back to a more traditional set of values.

I agree that there needs to be a marked change in the attitudes and business models used in some music shops but I don't really foresee them (or any other retail sectors) dying out.[/quote]

I agree about the 'social animal' thing, but if shopping is an important social experience for someone then I'd say they've got something wrong in their lives.

Shopping [u]detracts[/u] from socialising with your friends. It wastes valuable spare time - something that is becoming ever more precious in these days of connected-all-the-time-working-round-the-clock. Apparently, 'worlidays' are the new big thing: [url="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-14526949"]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-14526949[/url]

Imagine having this discussion 20 years ago, or BW (Before the Web ). The level of online shopping today would have been inconceivable. At least the rise of coffee and charity shops are helping to fill all those empty shop units in high streets throughout the land. I don't see the decline being halted anytime soon.

[Marvin]

Bad service can be found online as well.

I don't think it is a matter of shop or internet, more a case that many retailers, regardless what they are selling, in the UK just haven't got a clue when it comes to customer service.

There are very good online retailers and very good 'physical' retailers. When you find one, hold on to them very firmly

Edited August 17, 2011 by Marvin

[Chris2112]

[quote name='icastle' post='1343458' date='Aug 17 2011, 06:05 PM']Tesco were just another supermarket but are now seen by many as a plague on mankind.[/quote]

And yet we're always going there to take advantage of their reasonably priced, relatively high quality produce and other items. My local Tesco certainly doesn't look as though it's struggling.

[Pete Academy]

Regarding the OP, I agree it's frustrating when you don't get an email or phone call back. I keep stressing to our staff that we answer all emails immediately.

Buying smaller items from your local store, which need to be ordered, is difficult for the store to maintain price matching. For instance, if you wanted to order a power supply and the store had to order it specially, the companies charge anything up to £20 in posting and small order handling charge. If someone needs a guitar part I generally refer them to WD Music or Allparts, and tell it's the cheaper option, as those online stores specialise and keep stock.

Flyfisher, whilst I understand your comments, you have no idea how a music shop is run. You forsee doom and gloom for real shops, which is happening, as the other month four music shops closed down, including Dolphin, who have luckily been rescued by PMT. Don't forget, many major companies, such as Fender, will not supply online-only stores. What's the point? Eventually, those manufacturers will come under strain. Companies like JHS, who do the Vintage brand, will supply your local f***ing bakery. They were one of the first companies to supply Argos, which says it all.

Last Xmas we saw a major slump in guitar package sales, thanks to Lidl and Wilco selling packages for around £70. Attractive for the cash-strapped parents.

Regarding customer service, if a family comes in for a starter guitar for their six-year-old, I will ensure they get an instrument that is the right size and ensure the guitar leaves the shop tuned and with the strings stretched in. For a forty quid sale. Argos, anyone?

As a retailer I'm becoming increasingly uncomfortable with the online buyer being able to return something which he or she doesn't like, and have the shop foot the carriage fee. We have carriage free for £100-or-over sales. However, collection is more expensive. It reeks of the Marks and Spencer 'buy a dress, wear it to a party over the weekend, and return it for a refund on Monday' syndrome. We recently had a customer buy an expensive Engl Steve Morse head online. He used it for a gig and said it didn't work. The distributor collected it and found no fault whatsoever, but this customer moaned about his rights and we will have to refund him. Turns out we have discovered he has done this with other shops in the past.

Very frustrating.

[Mr. Foxen]

If people want to try out gear, they should visit their friendly neighbourhood House of Bass.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='1343589' date='Aug 17 2011, 07:45 PM']Flyfisher, whilst I understand your comments, you have no idea how a music shop is run. You forsee doom and gloom for real shops, which is happening, as the other month four music shops closed down, including Dolphin, who have luckily been rescued by PMT. Don't forget, many major companies, such as Fender, will not supply online-only stores. What's the point? Eventually, those manufacturers will come under strain. Companies like JHS, who do the Vintage brand, will supply your local f***ing bakery. They were one of the first companies to supply Argos, which says it all.[/quote]

You're right, I have no idea how a music shop is run, but I have a fair idea of the retail experience from the customer's perspective. And these sort of threads rarely seem to put music shops in a favourable light, based on the experiences of other customers.

Fender might not supply online stores at the moment but I seriously doubt that policy is set in stone for eternity.

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='flyfisher' post='1343620' date='Aug 17 2011, 08:18 PM']You're right, I have no idea how a music shop is run, but I have a fair idea of the retail experience from the customer's perspective. And these sort of threads rarely seem to put music shops in a favourable light, based on the experiences of other customers.

Fender might not supply online stores at the moment but I seriously doubt that policy is set in stone for eternity.[/quote]

Fair enough, those shops need to get their sh*t together.

I sincerely hope Fender don't sell out.

As stated previously, music shops are the best place to try instruments out, not online back and forth...how stupid is that?

I would love to stock more brands in our bass dept, but funds just don't allow it. Mark at Bass Direct is the man for that. For God's sake, don't put him out of business.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='1343628' date='Aug 17 2011, 08:25 PM']Fair enough, those shops need to get their sh*t together.[/quote]
Agreed. And actually, that's a rather different issue to the online issue really.


[quote name='Pete Academy' post='1343628' date='Aug 17 2011, 08:25 PM']I sincerely hope Fender don't sell out.[/quote]
I know what you mean but I wouldn't really see it as 'selling out'. If they end up selling to online companies it will be because economics forced them into it. If that's the only way they can eventually stay in business then it's not really selling out is it?


[quote name='Pete Academy' post='1343628' date='Aug 17 2011, 08:25 PM']As stated previously, music shops are the best place to try instruments out, not online back and forth...how stupid is that?[/quote]

I agree with that wholeheartedly. But how long can shops survive in the face of people trying out instruments in the shop and then buying them online? I don't see the demise of shops as some sort of planned conspiracy, just a natural consequence of the advantages of buying online.


[quote name='Pete Academy' post='1343628' date='Aug 17 2011, 08:25 PM']I would love to stock more brands in our bass dept, but funds just don't allow it.[/quote]

There you go . . . .

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='flyfisher' post='1343652' date='Aug 17 2011, 08:47 PM']Agreed. And actually, that's a rather different issue to the online issue really.



I know what you mean but I wouldn't really see it as 'selling out'. If they end up selling to online companies it will be because economics forced them into it. If that's the only way they can eventually stay in business then it's not really selling out is it?




I agree with that wholeheartedly. But how long can shops survive in the face of people trying out instruments in the shop and then buying them online? I don't see the demise of shops as some sort of planned conspiracy, just a natural consequence of the advantages of buying online.




There you go . . . .[/quote]

As Steven Wright said: 'You can't have everything...where would you put it?'

[Doddy]

[quote name='flyfisher' post='1343652' date='Aug 17 2011, 08:47 PM']I agree with that wholeheartedly. But how long can shops survive in the face of people trying out instruments in the shop and then buying them online?[/quote]
I think shops will always have their place-after all,when you try an instrument in a shop and then buy online you are getting a
different instrument. You may love a certain bass in a shop,but the one you get may have any number of minor but
significant differences.
I'll always but from a shop if I can.If I'm on the lookout for new gear,I'll take sometime and hit a bunch of shops in various
cities-sure I could just look and buy online,but where's the fun in that?

[Thatguy59]

My local shop (Kennys Music in Dunfermline) has so far only ever been excellent for me, 2/5 basses were bought there, the others were all second hand, I've had crazy deals like an already reduced Hartke head they offered to throw in a boss chorus for free. When I bought my basses, they were either really heavily reduced or I got given freebies with it as well. I popped in around christmas time and they gave me some free picks (hardly a big deal, but was a lovely gesture), and I'm hardly a regular.

I went in for strings and they priced them with google shopping, not what it was marked up on. I know that they're not going to be able to beat a full online range, but its the first place I'd look and I'm sure they'd order in if I needed something.

Not everywhere's great though, my band has a practice place 2 minutes away from a different shop, we get pretty decent deals there because we're in so often, but they're quite overpriced, and my singer brought his guitar in 3 or 4 times for a repair (that he bought from there), and they haven't done anything about it.

[dc2009]

[quote name='flyfisher' post='1343465' date='Aug 17 2011, 06:10 PM']I agree that the home delivery thing can be the weak link for internet shopping, though I have to say I've not got any personal horror stories.

People being at work during the day can, of course, be a problem. But there are ways around that. I've seen secure 'delivery bin' products where a package can be left and then latched closed by the courier, ready for the owner to return home.

There's also a fairly new "safe deposit box" scheme. I'm not sure about the precise details, but my wife has recenly been buying stuff online and having it delivered to a 'locker' (like a left-luggage box at train stations) at our local Morrisons store. The online company emails the locker number and combination code and my wife collect the parcel on the way home from work.

Rural post offices could also offer a "box number" type collection service for people who work during the day. Might be some complications with opening hours, though our village shop stays open until 8pm to catch the passing trade from people coming home from work.

I'm sure there'll be loads of similar innovations in years to come.

The other downside about shops is that anyone working full time is mainly limited to shopping on a saturday - and who wants to waste a precious day off when they can order online at any time of day?

I've got no axe to grind against shops, I just can't see them surviving unless they can offer something very unique and appealing - and I can't think what that might be.[/quote]

Then of course you get guys like DPD whose staff are too thick to manage to ring a doorbell.

[icastle]

[quote name='Chris2112' post='1343512' date='Aug 17 2011, 06:49 PM']And yet we're always going there to take advantage of their reasonably priced, relatively high quality produce and other items. My local Tesco certainly doesn't look as though it's struggling.[/quote]

That's true.
But on the other side of the coin though, how many anti Tesco websites have appeared compared to anti 'Jones the Butcher' websites?

[Guest bassman7755]

I dont mind paying a moderate premium say 10% more to buy in a shop but I cant justify paying more. Not music related but I saw a laptop I liked in PC world recently but it was around 30% more than several of big online places had it listed for. I offered to buy it if they could come down to only 10 or 15% more than the internet prices but they declined.

Edited August 18, 2011 by bassman7755

[dc2009]

[quote name='bassman7755' post='1343948' date='Aug 18 2011, 07:29 AM']I dont mind paying a moderate premium say 10% more to buy in a shop but I cant justify paying more. Not music related but I saw a laptop I liked in PC world recently but it was around 30% more than several of big online places had it listed for. I offered to buy it if they could come down to only 10 or 15% more than the internet prices but they declined.[/quote]

PC World = load of crap, I wouldn't even bother.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='icastle' post='1343896' date='Aug 18 2011, 01:01 AM']That's true.
But on the other side of the coin though, how many anti Tesco websites have appeared compared to anti 'Jones the Butcher' websites? [/quote]
Well yes, but large successful companies always draw some people out from under their stones to have a moan. Look at Microsoft.

Anyway, 'Jones the Butcher' was a bumbling old fool

[Musicman20]

Just been scouting the net. WOW, is guitarguitar super pricey!

2EQ Stingrays...some shops doing them for £1129 (these are the gigbag limited colour versions).

They were £999 before Xmas.

GuitarGuitar price? £1299.

Crazy.

For such a massive company, they will struggle at those prices.

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='Musicman20' post='1344283' date='Aug 18 2011, 12:48 PM']Just been scouting the net. WOW, is guitarguitar super pricey!

2EQ Stingrays...some shops doing them for £1129 (these are the gigbag limited colour versions).

They were £999 before Xmas.

GuitarGuitar price? £1299.

Crazy.

For such a massive company, they will struggle at those prices.[/quote]

Not really. Some geezer will walk in off the street, try it, like it, buy it. (they may even haggle a bit over price).

[icastle]

[quote name='flyfisher' post='1344266' date='Aug 18 2011, 12:37 PM']Well yes, but large successful companies always draw some people out from under their stones to have a moan. Look at Microsoft.

Anyway, 'Jones the Butcher' was a bumbling old fool

[/quote]

LMAO - I'd forgotten about him, it was just my Welsh roots showing.

[ern500evo]

I remember when i was younger and had just started playing, a trip to the music store should have been a happy occasion. The reality though was that it was quite nerve wracking, because most of the guys who worked in all the local music stores were assholes! Stores like Treblerock, Pro Music and ABC music, full of condescending pricks who looked down their noses at anyone who wasn't part of their little clique or a "face" on the local music scene. Here's 2 examples of the wonderful customer service and advice these places were willing to offer a beginner,
Example 1:
ME: "excuse me can i try that black ibanez bass please?"
HIM:(without even looking up from his venue magazine) "Do you have the money on you to buy it?"
ME: " not on me no, i'm just getting some ideas for my first proper bass"
HIM; " Come back later and i'll try and find time to get it down"! (there was no-ne else in the shop, not like he was rushed off his feet)

Example 2:(Different store)
ME: "Excuse me, can i try the blue ibanez bass please?"
HIM: (Literally laughing in my face) "Really? I mean, even if you could afford that bass, which you probably can't, would you really want it in that colour? why don't have a go on that black precision copy instead"! And then just carried on chatting to his mate, without even getting up.
Now they weren't all quite as bad as that, when Guitar workshop was open there was a guy in there(I think his name was Kit Morgan) who was always really friendly. On the other end of the scale, when i saved enough hard earned cash to buy my first brand new amp, i headed off to the bass centre in Wapping to buy a Trace rig and the guy in there couldn't do enough for me, loads of advice and help and did me a cracking deal! I'm sure there's some genuinely nice guys in local stores, but my personal memories aren't quite so rosy and nostalgic!
Rant over!!