Mixing speaker sizes

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='Wiggybass' timestamp='1349446983' post='1826481']
Is the T48 a horn-loaded cab, I'm not familiar with it? I know SB850s very well though, they are direct-radiating and were top of the tree in their day.
[/quote]

http://www.billfitzmaurice.com/T48.html

[xgsjx]

[quote name='stevie' timestamp='1349444999' post='1826443']
That drawing doesn't say anything about 4x10s. All it says is how good Bill Fitzmaurice is with a felt pen.
[/quote]

That's true. But it does show that it depends on the cab design as much as anything.

Another busy day at work, so I'm gonna just read thing & probably won't have any posting time (it's took the best part of 1/2 an hour to write this!).

[Wiggybass]

Ahhh, horn-loaded subs, I remember those...a rare sight indeed these days.

[Musky]

[quote name='stevie' timestamp='1349440678' post='1826352']
The Marshall 4x12s from the late sixties didn't produce any true bottom.
[/quote]
Very true.
[attachment=120234:Marshall4x12response_2.gif]

That chart is from a 70's Marshall guitar cab, but probably not so different to a 60's bass cab - and I'm not even sure Marshall were producing dedicated bass 4x12's in the sixties.

You could EQ some more bass into that, but not expect it to get very loud.

[Guest gazzatriumph]

I run a 410 and a 115 ashdown and i and my band members think it sounds great, it does sound better in the mix than on its own. All the science stuff is way over my head (thankfully) i tend to use my ears to decide if its any good not a calculator

[Lozz196]

[quote name='gazzatriumph' timestamp='1356544412' post='1911012']
All the science stuff is way over my head (thankfully) i tend to use my ears to decide if its any good not a calculator
[/quote]

Same here, let the ears make the choice. The only reason I no longer mix speaker sizes is so that I can use my combo on its own for rehearsals/small gigs, then add the same size ext speaker without having to re eq. Other than that, I`ve had some great 210/115 rigs over the years, sometimes with the amp, and each speaker being all different brands as well.

[JTUK]

210 and 115 cabs is a classic combo and I've really rated mine.....but I prefer 10's so I'd
pair another 210 with the 210.
I think matched cabs give you the best chance of working together really well.

FWIW, I've always thought 115 a useless cab for bass

[Conan]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1356638427' post='1911967']FWIW, I've always thought 115 a useless cab for bass
[/quote]

Interesting! When I had my old TE stack, I far preferred the sound from the 1518 than the 1048!! I liked 15s - but that was before I discovered properly made cabs, in which the size of the speaker is only [i]one[/i] of the variables, and even then not the most important one!

[JTUK]

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1356706010' post='1912687']
Interesting! When I had my old TE stack, I far preferred the sound from the 1518 than the 1048!! I liked 15s - but that was before I discovered properly made cabs, in which the size of the speaker is only [i]one[/i] of the variables, and even then not the most important one!
[/quote]

People KEEP saying this, but I don't hear it so I don't believe it.
I must agree that I wouldn't want a 10 without a horn so am certainly not going to go for a 15 without one
but you need a cab to do the range that you want to work with... and I've used 15's 12's and 10's with horns
and the 12 is not the compromise I'd want..let along a 15...

For me..and I think I have played around with a lot.... there is nothing that multiple 10's can't do for bass gtr...
I'll use twin 12's for the compact carry but they don't bite as well.
I see no point in playing higher fills if the cabs can't project it.. and I want that higher projection. out there... not buried.

That is what I want from a cab...

[Conan]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1356721242' post='1912972']
For me..and I think I have played around with a lot.... That is what I want from a cab...
[/quote]

Spot on! There really is no argument against that. If someone has taken the time, expense and effort to try lots of different speaker sizes, styles and combinations; and the result is pleasing to their ears - then nobody should tell them that they are wrong.

It's all about knowing your own needs and what satisfies them best. Both of these bits of knowledge only come about through years of experimentation (and lots of spending!).

The problems arise when inexperienced bassists ask the unanswerable questions like "What amp/cab/guitar/strings/etc do you recommend?" and every experienced bassist chimes in with their own answer....

Still - it keeps forums interesting!

[lastnotleast]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1313755348' post='1345379']
My experience is not restricted to 3' in front of the cab because these rigs have all been used for the back line at several jam nights, so I get to hear all my rigs from "out front".[/quote]

This is the key. Low frequencies are long waves and "speak" at a greater distance than the short distance at which we typically stand in front of our kit.
Ask a competent player with similar technique to sit in with the full band so you can hear your sound from the dance floor.
By similar technique I mean playing with a pick, slap, thumb or fingers.

Another factor is blending with the tone of the kick drum and keyboard if present.
I use (2) 1x15 sealed cabinets so prefer the kick drum to be a more percussive pop rather than loose and booming.

Edited December 31, 2012 by lastnotleast

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='lastnotleast' timestamp='1356956021' post='1915499']
This is the key. Low frequencies are long waves and "speak" at a greater distance than the short distance at which we typically stand in front of our kit.

[/quote]

That isn't how it works. Low frequencies are omnidirectional, higher ones are increasingly directional as radiating plane gets bigger, so if you stand too close to a cab, you can't hear the mids and highs, which are the thing you can pitch from, The lows reach you fine, that is why micing cabs and headphones work.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1356959941' post='1915588']
The lows reach you fine, that is why micing cabs and headphones work.
[/quote]+1, but what he's probably referring to, and the source of the myth of 'wave development', are boundary sourced cancellations that occur close to the source, masking the low frequencies. As one moves further back in the room one moves out of the boundary sourced null zones and the lows are better heard than when up close. This is basic acoustical engineering knowledge that every bass player should have as part of their mental kit.

[Lozz196]

Yes, I found that out a good while back. Set up, great sound on stage, full of bite, go out front for sound-check, full of boom & mush. I now find that to get a good sound out front, I have to get a clanky/middy/scratchy/nasally sound on stage which I don`t particularly like. Then when I stand where the audience are, it sounds just right in the mix.

[JTUK]

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1356998361' post='1916298']
Yes, I found that out a good while back. Set up, great sound on stage, full of bite, go out front for sound-check, full of boom & mush. I now find that to get a good sound out front, I have to get a clanky/middy/scratchy/nasally sound on stage which I don`t particularly like. Then when I stand where the audience are, it sounds just right in the mix.
[/quote]

This is why the Goliath 410 was such a revelation way back when.... you had to adjust your sound if stood near by
and relearn to play, in a sense, with the sound...but you knew it worked at a distance.

That is why they are a stage rig cab...as ideally you want enough room to stand off them.
Imagine doing that with a 215 or 118... Not sure your mon engr is going to love you
which is why the industry standard is a sealed 810... which should handle the bass bleed better, IMO.

[xgsjx]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1357041931' post='1916596']
which is why the industry standard is a sealed 810... which should handle the bass bleed better, IMO.
[/quote]

I don't get it. Why would a sealed 8x10 handle bass bleed better than any other non sealed cab of any other configuration?

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1357048161' post='1916694']
I don't get it. Why would a sealed 8x10 handle bass bleed better than any other non sealed cab of any other configuration?
[/quote]It won't.
The Fridge is the 'industry standard' for the same reason the SM 58 mic is: you can always count on them to work. They're ubiquitous on TV and in venues where the kit is either owned by the house or rented. Neither is perfect in every application, but both will function in any application.

[JTUK]

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1357048161' post='1916694']
I don't get it. Why would a sealed 8x10 handle bass bleed better than any other non sealed cab of any other configuration?
[/quote]

You don't want the bass to bleed at all...but it is very hard to control, so the less amount the better.
This is why bass heavy cabs aren't really wanted on large stages with lots of mics.
The bass is going to get there anyway but you want to cut the amount down if poss...

This is also why engrs would not want cabs on stage ...in an ideal world...but their approach is the get the best sound
which isnt unreasonable in itself but at odds with a lot of the musos that have to create it.
So, it becomes a game of managing your 'compromises'

[Prime_BASS]

I use two identical cabs for the phase reasoning.
They are sealed as I don't need that extra low end on stage.
Tall and vertically aligned as I want to be able to clearly hear all the mids, from 100hz and up as clear as possible.

[0175westwood29]

can i just stumble in and say that i use a 112 and a 115 together and they sound awesome! surely thats all that matters?

andy

[JTUK]

[quote name='0175westwood29' timestamp='1357069083' post='1917142']
can i just stumble in and say that i use a 112 and a 115 together and they sound awesome! surely thats all that matters?

andy
[/quote]

No....

[0175westwood29]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1357070104' post='1917170']
No....
[/quote]

ok ill get my coat

[JTUK]

[quote name='0175westwood29' timestamp='1357071223' post='1917201']
ok ill get my coat
[/quote]

have a beer.

[0175westwood29]

if something sound good is it wrong? i dnt know the math but all of that stuff kinda gets in the way for me and gets very confusing for a beginner.

this is the only time i envy guitarists! they have 12" speakers and thats it!

andy

Edited January 1, 2013 by 0175westwood29

[xgsjx]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1357049199' post='1916718']
It won't.
The Fridge is the 'industry standard' for the same reason the SM 58 mic is: you can always count on them to work. They're ubiquitous on TV and in venues where the kit is either owned by the house or rented. Neither is perfect in every application, but both will function in any application.
[/quote]

I can understand a venue wanting a rig to deal with a multitude of styles, but for a bassist's own kit?
I suppose it might be down to personal taste (or beliefs).