Mixing speaker sizes

[xgsjx]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1357053799' post='1916823']
You don't want the bass to bleed at all...but it is very hard to control, so the less amount the better.
This is why bass heavy cabs aren't really wanted on large stages with lots of mics.
The bass is going to get there anyway but you want to cut the amount down if poss...

This is also why engrs would not want cabs on stage ...in an ideal world...but their approach is the get the best sound
which isnt unreasonable in itself but at odds with a lot of the musos that have to create it.
So, it becomes a game of managing your 'compromises'
[/quote]

I couldn't agree more. But why a sealed 8x10?
For a stage with full PA & foldback, isn't the rig just for looks?
I often find a stage where the PA isn't ample to put the bass through, the venue doesn't usually warrant a fridge on stage & a 2x10 or 2x12 would give a better sound to both the band & the audience.

I used to play a couple of venues with just vocal PA, 1 guitar through an AC30, the other through a Marshall 1/2 stack & a hard hitting drummer (though unmic'd) to a crowd of 2-300 & using my 2x10 was plentiful (had to put auralex foam or similar on the big wooden stages though).

[JTUK]

Depends on stage size, IMO.
Sealed 810 aren't typically boomy so a good choice from that POV.
I am sure 810's look the part...as would a row of them, but maybe they only run 1.
If you are going to have your own foldback and wedges etc..you might as well have your own stack/rig
as you sort out your sound with familiar kit. The monitor man will soon tell you if your running into his mix.

I posted another thread about a 3k backline... and can't see anyone actually running that no matter what is on stage.

For the venues we do, I always ask what mix I can have prior to the gig and if I can have my own mix, I am still sceptical
even if they say 4 , 8 mixes. so I take a small 2x210 rig capable of filling the stage, that way monitors become less of an issue for me and as long as I get everyone else in the mix, I am happy. Depends on the lenght of the soundcheck and how long you get.

If I could find a nice 610, I'd use that...but I don't do enough gigs to warrant that

I wouldn't approach gigs with just enough theoretical power... I will want more in hand.
Funnily enough, I find bass players on the same gig seem to struggle with their combos and small rigs
as they have to wind them up so much... it is such a compromise sound. Of course, the FOH handles it outfront
but they have such a painful stage sound as far as I can hear...
If the monitors can take the load that is ok...but the thing that is giving them the problem with their combo is going to be the thing that will upset the monitors. Basically, some people need too much bass in their sound or they can't play...
All a recipe for disaster in a variable room, IMO.

I don't think I would want to do 2-300 people with just vox, tbh.... gtr and keys goes thru the P.A for pubs as a minimum.

If I did more of these large stage gigs, I would have the stage size and rig type ratio more off pat...
Off the top of my head, an 810 would be required to 'fill' a 100m sq stage with full monitoring.
If the monitoring was top notch and you had a stage mon mix, maybe you could rethink the fridge idea. ..but by this time
the fridge idea has run away with you
In an ideal world, you would 'rehearse' your kit or you rely on the hire co to bring you their backline... which brings us back round to the 810 as that is what they use and know well.

[peteb]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1357158282' post='1918446']
Depends on stage size, IMO.
Sealed 810 aren't typically boomy so a good choice from that POV.
I am sure 810's look the part...as would a row of them, but maybe they only run 1.
If you are going to have your own foldback and wedges etc..you might as well have your own stack/rig
as you sort out your sound with familiar kit. The monitor man will soon tell you if your running into his mix.

I posted another thread about a 3k backline... and can't see anyone actually running that no matter what is on stage.

For the venues we do, I always ask what mix I can have prior to the gig and if I can have my own mix, I am still sceptical
even if they say 4 , 8 mixes. so I take a small 2x210 rig capable of filling the stage, that way monitors become less of an issue for me and as long as I get everyone else in the mix, I am happy. Depends on the lenght of the soundcheck and how long you get.

If I could find a nice 610, I'd use that...but I don't do enough gigs to warrant that

I wouldn't approach gigs with just enough theoretical power... I will want more in hand.
Funnily enough, I find bass players on the same gig seem to struggle with their combos and small rigs
as they have to wind them up so much... it is such a compromise sound. Of course, the FOH handles it outfront
but they have such a painful stage sound as far as I can hear...
If the monitors can take the load that is ok...but the thing that is giving them the problem with their combo is going to be the thing that will upset the monitors. Basically, some people need too much bass in their sound or they can't play...
All a recipe for disaster in a variable room, IMO.

I don't think I would want to do 2-300 people with just vox, tbh.... gtr and keys goes thru the P.A for pubs as a minimum.

If I did more of these large stage gigs, I would have the stage size and rig type ratio more off pat...
Off the top of my head, an 810 would be required to 'fill' a 100m sq stage with full monitoring.
If the monitoring was top notch and you had a stage mon mix, maybe you could rethink the fridge idea. ..but by this time
the fridge idea has run away with you
In an ideal world, you would 'rehearse' your kit or you rely on the hire co to bring you their backline... which brings us back round to the 810 as that is what they use and know well.
[/quote]
Good post!

I was speaking to a mate of mine over the holidays who runs quite a big PA hire company (works with the odd household name, does big installations, etc) and he reckons that the easiest band for a sound engineer to work with is one that has a good onstage sound! I think that the good guys can deal with a bit of bleed (within reason) if the band is happy and the engineer has a good sound as a reference to work with.

FWIW – I used to mix different speaker sizes but switched to just using 10s when I realised that the advantages of having all the speakers in phase outweighed the those of mixing the sounds of speakers of different sizes…..

[xgsjx]

I think the hardest part of getting that good stage sound is trying to convince the guitarist that he doesn't need to be cranked to 11.
Once he realises he doesn't have to drown out the snare & crash, then getting everything else to sound good on stage is a much easier job.

Ideally, all the SE should need to do is amplify the band's sound. If the band doesn't have a good stage sound then I think the term "polishing a jobby" would apply.

[0175westwood29]

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1357197916' post='1918874']
I think the hardest part of getting that good stage sound is trying to convince the guitarist that he doesn't need to be cranked to 11.
Once he realises he doesn't have to drown out the snare & crash, then getting everything else to sound good on stage is a much easier job.

[/quote]

This is tho if your guitarist like mine has a full marshall stack they actually sound better when cranked! And shoot me for saying this they do sound awesome!

Maybe just tell all guitarists to buy one of the things that allows them to crank but not be so loud is it a power break?

The more annoying thing is when ppl dnt use the soundcheck well, ie the singer sings much quieter than norm the guitarist noodles around and doesnt check pedal levels etc and im the only one making adjustment for the room or stage?

Andy

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='0175westwood29' timestamp='1357210687' post='1919031']
Maybe just tell all guitarists to buy one of the things that allows them to crank but not be so loud is it a power break?
[/quote]

Telling them to not buy Marshalls would be a good start. You can make amps that have volume knobs that function properly and sound good, rather than getting one that sounds rubbish and turning it up until it sounds good.

[0175westwood29]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1357220788' post='1919277']
Telling them to not buy Marshalls would be a good start. You can make amps that have volume knobs that function properly and sound good, rather than getting one that sounds rubbish and turning it up until it sounds good.
[/quote]

thats down to personal choice im a big fan of marshall's (good marshalls) most if not all guitar amps be they marshall engl, orange or mesa sound best when pushed.

but also nowdays there are ways of getting round this, one of our guitarists have a small fender twin reverb and a line 6 pod very nice sound.

but i realise this now going off topic

andy

[JTUK]

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1357197916' post='1918874']
I think the hardest part of getting that good stage sound is trying to convince the guitarist that he doesn't need to be cranked to 11.
Once he realises he doesn't have to drown out the snare & crash, then getting everything else to sound good on stage is a much easier job.

Ideally, all the SE should need to do is amplify the band's sound. If the band doesn't have a good stage sound then I think the term "polishing a jobby" would apply.
[/quote]

Yep, it all starts with individual sounds..and always will do, IME.
We try and give the engr as good a signal as poss... and by that I mean we give him the same as we would do in smaller venue.
and we have layered our sounds as well as we can do within the confirms of the sounds we want to use.
This does take compromise on the lead instruments and that means the gtr has to keep his sounds from overlapping everyone else.
We are lucky he initiated this...and it is his good form that helps us with a band sound. He will not play a wall of sound gtr unless the track needs it...
and he will drop out of verses completely...for example. The helps the sound breathe and gives us a sense of dynamics. It also means we aren't 150% in people ears all the time as well.
Anyway, the upshot of all this is that basically our sound checks pretty much come down to levels rather than EQ and this makes them easier and quicker.
It translates up to Engr P.A as well.

It falls down if you are constrantly chasing sounds and people get into fights about hearing themselves over everyone else.
To me, a failed mix is when I can't hear the keys play subtle parts and I lose hearing any single instrument.
If we are going to lose it...it will be right at the end of the show... but we try and maintain the level from start to finish...which takes constant discipline
and talking to keep it in check.
I like to think we have a decent reputation for live sound either via backline or FOH but it takes all the guys to buy into it...and stick with it.
The last part is not so easy ... and we can get LOUD.... but I HATE it if/when we lose the mix.

[JTUK]

There are Marshalls and Marshalls...IMO
One of the best players round here has a sweet 50w... which is still very loud, but he used to use 100's which is just plain silly if the sound can't dissipate
Thankfully, most deps use way smaller and/or power-soaks

The point about turning up a Marshall is true... I don't think the controls do anything but gain...!!!!
Mostly all the gain is done by about a qtr of the way up.

[VTypeV4]

As an FOH engineer, Marshall heads and four twelves are the number one enemy..

[peteb]

[quote name='VTypeV4' timestamp='1357224473' post='1919343']
As an FOH engineer, Marshall heads and four twelves are the number one enemy..
[/quote]
The trouble is that the top guitar players who do the big tours nearly all use all big valve heads and 412s!

Probably best to learn how to deal with them if you want to do the bigger gigs......

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1357235323' post='1919579']
The trouble is that the top guitar players who do the big tours nearly all have big valve heads and 412s on the stage!
[/quote]

Fixed

Edited January 3, 2013 by Mr. Foxen

[peteb]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1357235445' post='1919582']
Fixed


[/quote]
Brings back memories of supporting a band who had exactly the same backline as that....!!

[JTUK]

They may well do, but they are in bigger environments... the stage is easily bigger than most pubs and is not so enclosed.
A wall of cabs is great imagery..see those pics, but no one would be using them all.
The side fills will do all that work..the amp will get the initial sound and be mapped thru the pedal board..and then the signal go to the desks and that is the sound we all hear.

There are amps and rigs and then there are stage rigs.
Some amps are too much in small spaces... IMO.. of course, you can turn some down
but you don't need to lug 412's around for the pub

[Bassman Steve]

Best pub guitar sound I ever heard (played with) was a guy with an old 18 watt Marshall Bluesbreaker 2x12 combo. Just ran it flat out and mic'd it and it sounded immense.

[VTypeV4]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1357235323' post='1919579']
The trouble is that the top guitar players who do the big tours nearly all use all big valve heads and 412s!

Probably best to learn how to deal with them if you want to do the bigger gigs......
[/quote]

The top players use the equipment they have proportionally and appropriatly whether it's a beat up Fender Princeton or a Boogie rectifier. 50w and 2x12s are borderline in the Rigger.

And for the record I've done enough 'big' gigs and tours over the years where 4x12 and 100w are fine..

Learn to deal with them? Interseting.

[peteb]

[quote name='VTypeV4' timestamp='1357245902' post='1919898']
The top players use the equipment they have proportionally and appropriatly whether it's a beat up Fender Princeton or a Boogie rectifier. 50w and 2x12s are borderline in the Rigger.

And for the record I've done enough 'big' gigs and tours over the years where 4x12 and 100w are fine..

Learn to deal with them? Interseting.
[/quote]
[color=#222222][color=#222222]Not meaning to offend anyone but I’m intrigued why you would dislike working with valve half stacks (used proportionally & appropriately of course) if you have that sort of background??[/color][/color]

[VTypeV4]

Because in a venue the size of the Rigger, they're just too loud if people want to run them flat out. Don't get me wrong on a big stage where there is plenty of space they're great but not in a venue that small. I have a good sound system (not perfect by any means) and I can [i]just[/i] get the voice over the top but it's gotten painfully loud by this point and it's no fun for anyone with the exception of egotist on the other end of the 4x12.

If you have to turn the drums up just keep up the guitar, it's too loud..

My problem is that I've dealt with so many muppets with 4x12s and big valve amps. I've also dealt with many people that will give me that couple of dB that makes all the difference which is great but as ever it's the few that spoil it for the majority.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1357254806' post='1920079']
[color=#222222][color=#222222]Not meaning to offend anyone but I’m intrigued why you would dislike working with valve half stacks (used proportionally & appropriately of course) if you have that sort of background??[/color][/color]
[/quote]

4x12s tend to be disproportionate. They were supposed to be for bass for starters, and speakers have got louder in the meantime. 4x12 syndrome where the guitarist sits on it and tried to eq the treble they can't hear back in is still far too common. Going to many small metal gigs probably makes it all seem especially bad in my experience.

[VTypeV4]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1357266519' post='1920213']
4x12s tend to be disproportionate. They were supposed to be for bass for starters, and speakers have got louder in the meantime. 4x12 syndrome where the guitarist sits on it and tried to eq the treble they can't hear back in is still far too common. Going to many small metal gigs probably makes it all seem especially bad in my experience.
[/quote]

Plus one..

[Lozz196]

[quote name='VTypeV4' timestamp='1357259784' post='1920164']
If you have to turn the drums up just keep up the guitar, it's too loud..
[/quote]

Spot on, all backline should only be at the volume of the drums, being played unamplified. The only downside to this is when you have a drummer who is incredibly loud, and can`t adjust their playing. I`ve been in such bands, and gigs aren`t too bad, but rehearsals are a nightmare.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='VTypeV4' timestamp='1357259784' post='1920164']
Don't get me wrong on a big stage where there is plenty of space they're great
[/quote]Not even then. To a man the biggest complaint of the hundreds of FOH engineers I've worked with is guitar stacks. They all would rather the guitar'd players were using 1x12 or 2x12s. And this is the venue:
http://www.meadowbrook.net/

[0175westwood29]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1357306562' post='1920679']
Not even then. To a man the biggest complaint of the hundreds of FOH engineers I've worked with is guitar stacks. They all would rather the guitar'd players were using 1x12 or 2x12s. And this is the venue:
[url="http://www.meadowbrook.net/"]http://www.meadowbrook.net/[/url]
[/quote]

surely this attitude is very similar to guitarist thinking that we should play a 115?

[VTypeV4]

In all fairness, I don't mind what guitarists use as long as they're using whatever they have appropriatly and not trying to murder everyones ear drums..

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='0175westwood29' timestamp='1357307945' post='1920707']
surely this attitude is very similar to guitarist thinking that we should play a 115?
[/quote]No, it's because they can't get a proper mix throughout the venue when the guitars are so loud directly in front of their cabs that they drown out a 30,000 watt PA, while ten degrees to either side of that they can't be heard at all.