Mixing speaker sizes

[0175westwood29]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1357316825' post='1920946']
No, it's because they can't get a proper mix throughout the venue when the guitars are so loud directly in front of their cabs that they drown out a 30,000 watt PA, while ten degrees to either side of that they can't be heard at all.
[/quote]

thats true but you can crank a guitar amp and not blow out a rooms sound ive went to a paul gilbert clinic he had to 100w marshalls cranked in a 100 seater assembly hall and you could hear everything just fine. i genuinely think its down to a sound eng and the artist working together. also for some guitarists eqing is a big problem how many times have you heard " i cant hear myself ? " so they just turn up and up and up!

not meaning to be rude, i just think a nice marshall half stack rig is hard to beat.

in the same way if i had the money and roadies id have an 810 next to a 412 as ive tried them together and they sound sweet! was silly load obviously!

andy

[peteb]

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1357300563' post='1920534']
Spot on, all backline should only be at the volume of the drums, being played unamplified.
[/quote]

That is what I was always taught, that the onstage level should be dtermined by how loud the drums are

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1357300563' post='1920534']
The only downside to this is when you have a drummer who is incredibly loud, and can`t adjust their playing.
[/quote]

However, it should be noted that all good rock drummers, without exception, are pretty loud! If you don't believe me go on youtubbe and look up any top drummer (they are always doing clinics or tutorials - they can't help themselves). For example, Kenny Aronoff, a top session player and a trained orchestral percussionist, is brutally loud!

[quote name='VTypeV4' timestamp='1357315845' post='1920919']
In all fairness, I don't mind what guitarists use as long as they're using whatever they have appropriatly and not trying to murder everyones ear drums..
[/quote]

I agree with everything that you have said apart from your initial (possibly flippant) statement about half stacks! :-)

The point is that the job of the sound engineer is to help the band sound good so that they can put on a performance for the benefit of the audience. This requires an element of compromise – no one wants to see even the greatest band if there is a terrible FOH sound – but if the band has a good onstage sound that they are happy with, a good sound engineer should be able to use that to get a great sound out front.....

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1357325417' post='1921176']
However, it should be noted that all good rock drummers, without exception, are pretty loud!
[/quote]No problem there, they use shields. The more considerate, not to mention knowledgable, guitar players do as well.

I saw a guitar player a few months ago who was the best bluesman I've seen since Mike Bloomfield, and he was not only a magnificent player, he knew how to use his gear. His Fender Twin was towards the back of the stage, aimed at a 45 degree angle towards the wings. The audience heard it through the PA, those on stage heard it though the monitors, and it was perfect. His name is Rocky Athas, he tours with John Mayall, and he is every bit as good as any other player to ever work with John, including Clapton. So good that he doesn't need to stroke his ego with the size of his rig.

[Lozz196]

Interesting point there Bill. I saw a clip on youtube about The Darkness, and Dan Hawkins has an AC30 which he actually points backwards off stage as he says that way with the amp running at the tone he likes, the volume on stage from it is just about right, whereas if it faces outwards it is just too loud and deafens them all.

[0175westwood29]

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1357332883' post='1921358']
Interesting point there Bill. I saw a clip on youtube about The Darkness, and Dan Hawkins has an AC30 which he actually points backwards off stage as he says that way with the amp running at the tone he likes, the volume on stage from it is just about right, whereas if it faces outwards it is just too loud and deafens them all.
[/quote]

saw the same video! he has a cool guitar set up

andy

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

I once mixed for a band where the guitar player ran a 4x12. I asked if he wanted to be mic'd, he said no. When they played he was loud enough directly in front of the cab, but couldn't be heard at all anywhere else. First break he asked if he was loud enough, I told him he couldn't be heard other than directly in front of the cab and I should mic it. He said no, he'd just crank it louder. He did, it only got worse. But I didn't argue about it, because I'd learned long before that gig that you can't fix stupid.

[VTypeV4]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1357325417' post='1921176']
That is what I was always taught, that the onstage level should be dtermined by how loud the drums are


I agree with everything that you have said apart from your initial (possibly flippant) statement about half stacks! :-)

The point is that the job of the sound engineer is to help the band sound good so that they can put on a performance for the benefit of the audience. This requires an element of compromise – no one wants to see even the greatest band if there is a terrible FOH sound – but if the band has a good onstage sound that they are happy with, a good sound engineer should be able to use that to get a great sound out front.....
[/quote]

Glad we're on the same page. And yes my comment was rather 'off the cuff' !

Edited January 4, 2013 by VTypeV4

[Phil Starr]

A 100W Marshall half stack fully cranked produces something like 128dB on axis at 1m. That's loud and has a number of effects upon a bands performance.

If the vocal mics are less than 4m away on axis they will get about 116dB peaks in sound from the guitar, very few singers can achieve this level at the mic so the guitar will be louder than the vocals through the vocal mic making it impossible to mix the guitar and vocals.

Since the whole point of a cranked valve amp is to get 'natural' compression the guitar will have even more of a tendency to drown out the rest of the band.

Sound levels of over 100dB will cause permanent hearing loss with only a few hours exposure. Hearing loss isn't a good thing for anyone let alone a musician. In any case sound levels this high will cause physiological changes in your hearing as your body compensates for damaging sound levels which will reduce your ability to hear clearly. Musicians play better when they can hear themselves and the rest of the band clearly.

So, unless you are playing on huge stages where everyone can get well away from the half stack the guitarist is buying their tone at the expense of the rest of the band and the audience.

[xgsjx]

& try telling your average guitarist that!

[VTypeV4]

As Bill said, you can't fix stupid..

[kevindoudie]

SO after all this basically two 4 by 10 cabs are better than a 4 by 10 and one 15 cab??

[peteb]

[quote name='kevindoudie' timestamp='1357845752' post='1929513']
SO after all this basically two 4 by 10 cabs are better than a 4 by 10 and one 15 cab??
[/quote]
er.... yes!

[flyfisher]

If mixing speaker sizes is such a bad thing, how come almost all Hifi speakers/professional monitors are built with different size drivers?

[xgsjx]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1357856343' post='1929742']
If mixing speaker sizes is such a bad thing, how come almost all Hifi speakers/professional monitors are built with different size drivers?
[/quote]

Most good ones don't unless they have crossovers or bi amped (are you counting tweeters as drivers?).

[peteb]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1357856343' post='1929742']
If mixing speaker sizes is such a bad thing, how come almost all Hifi speakers/professional monitors are built with different size drivers?
[/quote]
I only say that I have found thru trial and error that using multiple same size speakers has compelling phasing / efficiency benefits in a live situation.

I don't think that is such an important issue for hifi speakers or monitors.....

[flyfisher]

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1357856881' post='1929757']


Most good ones don't unless they have crossovers or bi amped (are you counting tweeters as drivers?).
[/quote]

I wasn't excluding crossovers or bi-amping, just thinking about the overall function of converting electrical waveforms back into sound.

Perhaps it's all just a matter of compromise. Some Hifi speakers have dual drivers, some have three, some have more. Perhaps the ultimate would be a crossover filter with 20,000 outputs, one for each frequency, driving 20,000 amplifiers and 20,000 drivers? Then each 'channel' could be optimised for it's specific frequency and there would be no interference between them.

OK, a ridiculous extreme, but isn't that the basic idea about using multiple drivers in the first place?

[flyfisher]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1357857103' post='1929765']

I only say that I have found thru trial and error that using multiple same size speakers has compelling phasing / efficiency benefits in a live situation.

I don't think that is such an important issue for hifi speakers or monitors.....
[/quote]

I can't really see why a live situation is particularly different to a Hifi one. It's all about reproducing music isn't it? Sure, there might be loads of differences in the listening environments, but is that really the reason for choosing speaker sizes?

I'm not saying you're wrong, I just don't really understand it.

[peteb]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1357858055' post='1929786']
I can't really see why a live situation is particularly different to a Hifi one. It's all about reproducing music isn't it? Sure, there might be loads of differences in the listening environments, but is that really the reason for choosing speaker sizes?

I'm not saying you're wrong, I just don't really understand it.
[/quote]
I never even considered it until I had a discussion with someone who did understand the science and I tried it for myself.

Playing in a band situation, you are only a component of the overall sound. It is a lot more efficient to have (for example) eight ten inch speakers all moving together rather than a 410 and a cab with a 15 inch speaker moving at different speeds, which is bound to have small but noticable phasing issues.....

[xgsjx]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1357857768' post='1929777']
I wasn't excluding crossovers or bi-amping, just thinking about the overall function of converting electrical waveforms back into sound.

Perhaps it's all just a matter of compromise. Some Hifi speakers have dual drivers, some have three, some have more. Perhaps the ultimate would be a crossover filter with 20,000 outputs, one for each frequency, driving 20,000 amplifiers and 20,000 drivers? Then each 'channel' could be optimised for it's specific frequency and there would be no interference between them.

OK, a ridiculous extreme, but isn't that the basic idea about using multiple drivers in the first place?
[/quote]

There isn't really a need for the drivers to be different sizes for any other reason than "looks".

If you look at a good set of monitors or hifi speakers, they're a vertical array. Some have a driver for the midrange, in this sort of instance there's a crossover that filters "bass" frequencies to the "woofer" & has a small overlap & filters the higher "mids" to a smaller driver (smaller drivers have a wider dispersion).

If you Google "Audiophile speakers" or "studio monitors", you'll find that there's very few with different sized drivers.

Someone else said something along the lines of "Picture soundwaves like water ripples. Drop a big stone & a small stone in the water at the same time & you get different sized ripples moving at different speeds & hitting off one another. Drop 2 the same size & all the ripples move together". Makes sense to me.

[peteb]

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1357858920' post='1929802']
Someone else said something along the lines of "Picture soundwaves like water ripples. Drop a big stone & a small stone in the water at the same time & you get different sized ripples moving at different speeds & hitting off one another. Drop 2 the same size & all the ripples move together". Makes sense to me.
[/quote]
Good analogy....

[flyfisher]

Yes, good explanation and makes sense to me as well. Thanks.

[chris_b]

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1357858920' post='1929802']
....If you Google "Audiophile speakers" or "studio monitors", you'll find that there's very few with different sized drivers....
[/quote]

But Barefaced, Bergantino and Mesa Boogie do.

So mixed speakers can work if you get the right ones.

[peteb]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1357859846' post='1929826']
But Barefaced, Bergantino and Mesa Boogie do.

So mixed speakers can work if you get the right ones.
[/quote]
Cabs with mixed speakers may sound alright, but you have to trade that off against the efficiency / phasing issues.....

[xgsjx]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1357859846' post='1929826']
But Barefaced, Bergantino and Mesa Boogie do.

So mixed speakers can work if you get the right ones.
[/quote]
I agree.
Some companies do spend a bit of time designing their cabs so some can be mixed. Sadly, a lot don't & just make what they think will sell (& sometimes it actually works, sound wise too).

[chris_b]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1357860016' post='1929831']
....Cabs with mixed speakers may sound alright, but you have to trade that off against the efficiency / phasing issues.....
[/quote]

You'd better get on to Alex right away and tell he's doing it wrong.