Cabs for tuning down to A

[Mr. Foxen]

So the new band wants to be like Sunn O))). Any tips on making the most of my bottom end? I have a Peavey Firebass head (700w at 2ohm) and two ported 15" cabs.

[Welshbassist]

Mmmmm Sunn O)))!

I bet their bassist doesn't actually use a cab that reaches down to A himself, they're pretty hard to come by!

Edited March 11, 2008 by Welshbassist

[joegarcia]

When I sam them at ATP last year they were using Ampeg 810's. Loads of them. At least four or five I think, possibly more.

[bass_ferret]

Accugroove Bill Dickens

[chris_b]

A Mesa Boogie 2x15 cab or 2 1x15 cabs (must have the EV speakers) go as low as you could ever want and will be as clear as a bell.

[alexclaber]

What you really want is a cab with reasonable response to the A above low A - i.e. 55Hz - and good power handling in the lows (high Xmax). What 15" woofers are in your current cabs?

Alex

[vegas_hooker]

Last time I caught them they had an organist instead of a bassist. He was going through 2 SVT's and 2 8x10's.

The guitarists were each going through 4 4x12's so I can only imagine what a bass player would need to compete with.

I would actually say they go more for volume than frequency range in the rigs they use. It was the sort of volume that made me feel like I was about to have a nose bleed.

[coasterbass]

There's possibly something to say for not running the amp at 2ohms. You'll get a tighter accurate response at 4 or 8.

[coasterbass]

also, the Firebass has the variable crossover doesn't it (??) is that just for a further outboard poweramp, or can you biamp internally??

If there's anyway that you can get to bi-amp your rig then I think you'll have much better response 'down there'.

[Dood]

I tune to low F# and to be honest, Alex is right on the money. I think you'll find the bottom end is far better reproduced through the PA subs than the back line. You only really need to hear the overtones (that backline cabs are far better at reproducing) than those low fundamentals. 90% of cabs on the market (and speaker cones) can't produce those fundamentals in that region anyway.

[umph]

[quote name='dood' post='155859' date='Mar 12 2008, 11:24 AM']I tune to low F# and to be honest, Alex is right on the money. I think you'll find the bottom end is far better reproduced through the PA subs than the back line. You only really need to hear the overtones (that backline cabs are far better at reproducing) than those low fundamentals. 90% of cabs on the market (and speaker cones) can't produce those fundamentals in that region anyway.[/quote]
sound men can turn pas down though

[Hamster]

I'm sure I read somewhere - probably Bill Fitzmaurice's website, that the fundamentals are not as important as the harmonics when looking at reproducing low frequencies. That low A is about 27.5Hz and I doubt you'll find a backline that can spit that out. As Alex says, concentrate on the 55Hz response.

[umph]

[url="http://www.precision-devices.com/showdetails.asp?id=17"]http://www.precision-devices.com/showdetails.asp?id=17[/url]

you could always put one of those in a cab would be a little bowel destroying though and it'd just be low end

[bremen]

[quote name='umph' post='155883' date='Mar 12 2008, 11:46 AM'][url="http://www.precision-devices.com/showdetails.asp?id=17"]http://www.precision-devices.com/showdetails.asp?id=17[/url]

you could always put one of those in a cab would be a little bowel destroying though and it'd just be low end[/quote]

[loudspeaker geek] that data sheet doesn't even specify its Xmax [/loudspeaker geek]

[coasterbass]

[quote name='umph' post='155883' date='Mar 12 2008, 11:46 AM'][url="http://www.precision-devices.com/showdetails.asp?id=17"]http://www.precision-devices.com/showdetails.asp?id=17[/url]

you could always put one of those in a cab would be a little bowel destroying though and it'd just be low end[/quote]


Yeah - we use these, which I think house those particular drivers:

[url="http://www.emacoustics.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=24&Itemid=37"]http://www.emacoustics.co.uk/index.php?opt...4&Itemid=37[/url]

Transport is a bit of an issue though!!!
I bi-amp an SVT4 into a 1x18 and 4x10 to get the kick behind you, and leave the rest to the PA.

[Dood]

[quote name='bremen' post='155890' date='Mar 12 2008, 11:54 AM'][loudspeaker geek] that data sheet doesn't even specify its Xmax [/loudspeaker geek][/quote]

yeh, I also suspect you'd need a fairly large/tuned cab to make use of the speakers 'abilities' too!

[Moo]

Most PA systems will have high pass filters set to 40hz in order to prevent cone damage and save amp power for the frequencies you can hear instead.
I saw an article for a 4x24" infrabass PA cab that went down to 16hz. The sound engineers who used it were confused because they could see the cones moving, but could not hear anything.
As Stated above, It is pointless trying to produce frequencies that low, because no one except mating crocodiles can hear them. Frequencies between 20-40Hz will add lots of mud and mush to your tone, but wont make the low notes sound any clearer. Most of the sound that you actually hear in a note with a fundamental below 50hz will be the second harmonic at the octave above.

The bass cabs I built with PD drivers, which also double as subs for my PA system, are capable of 20Hz which I tested with tone when I tuned them. I cut anything below 50Hz when I use them in my (6 string tuned to low bass stack, because It cleans up the tone with very little noticeable loss in low end.

Edited March 12, 2008 by Moo

[bremen]

[quote name='Moo' post='155896' date='Mar 12 2008, 12:06 PM']Most PA systems will have high pass filters set to 40hz in order to prevent cone damage and save amp power for the frequencies you can hear instead.
I saw an article for a 4x24" infrabass PA cab that went down to 16hz. The sound engineers who used it were confused because they could see the cones moving, but could not hear anything.
As Stated above, It is pointless trying to produce frequencies that low, because no one except mating crocodiles can hear them. Frequencies between 20-40Hz will add lots of mud and mush to your tone, but wont make the low notes sound any clearer. Most of the sound that you actually hear in a note with a fundamental below 50hz will be the second harmonic at the octave above.

The bass cabs I built with PD drivers, which also double as subs for my PA system, are capable of 20Hz which I tested with tone when I tuned them. I cut anything below 50Hz when I use them in my (6 string tuned to low bass stack, because It cleans up the tone with very little noticeable loss in low end.[/quote]

indeed - at frequencies that low the room is as important as the box, so it's only outdoors that it's going to be practical to hear 32Hz.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='bremen' post='155911' date='Mar 12 2008, 07:30 AM']indeed - at frequencies that low the room is as important as the box, so it's only outdoors that it's going to be practical to hear 32Hz.[/quote]
Au contraire. The best results below 40Hz are indoors, in rooms where the longest dimension is less than 14 feet, as that's where cabin gain at a rate of 12dB/octave will result in high enough SPL to hear it. To understand why google 'Equal Loudness curves'. To hear a 25Hz tone at the same level as a 100 Hz tone at 100dB the 25hz tone would have to be 120dB, and getting 120dB at 25 Hz outdoors even with a very large horn-loaded sub woofer would require about 1,000 watts. I've tested many subs outdoors, and at 25Hz and 100dB if not for the reading of the meter one would not even know there was any sound present.

To the OP, faggedaboutit, you don't need response to 28 Hz and couldn't use it even if you had it.

[quote]Accugroove Bill Dickens[/quote]
Not a bad choice, but does not perform as advertised.

[url="http://billfitzmaurice.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2362"]http://billfitzmaurice.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2362[/url]

Edited March 12, 2008 by Bill Fitzmaurice

[alexclaber]

It's really nice to have good cab response down to the low note fundamentals but it just isn't practical and unlikely to be audible in a typical heavy down-tuned band. In groovier genres where you have more sonic space and less SPL response to low B fundamental is very nice but I don't know of any cabs that are happy with producing 27.5Hz well - even Acmes are 6dB down at 31Hz and they go lower than any. The various AccuGroove cabs are often mentioned when people talk about deep response but even the big El Whappo is tuned to 40Hz and thus at least 10dB down at 30Hz if not more, and the Whappo Grande - impressive though it looks - is equally far off. Here's a plot comparing AccuGroove's Whappo Grande specs (the green line) with three possible modelled responses with that speaker in that cab volume:



That's as big a difference as between a bass and a guitar!

Alex

[bremen]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='155968' date='Mar 12 2008, 01:52 PM']Au contraire. The best results below 40Hz are indoors, in rooms where the longest dimension is less than 14 feet, as that's where cabin gain at a rate of 12dB/octave will result in high enough SPL to hear it. To understand why google 'Equal Loudness curves'. To hear a 25Hz tone at the same level as a 100 Hz tone at 100dB the 25hz tone would have to be 120dB, and getting 120dB at 25 Hz outdoors even with a very large horn-loaded sub woofer would require about 1,000 watts. I've tested many subs outdoors, and at 25Hz and 100dB if not for the reading of the meter one would not even know there was any sound present.

To the OP, faggedaboutit, you don't need response to 28 Hz and couldn't use it even if you had it.


Not a bad choice, but does not perform as advertised.

[url="http://billfitzmaurice.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2362"]http://billfitzmaurice.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2362[/url][/quote]

What I mean is that you're not going to be able to put a lot of subs into a room without making everything sound muddy, and it is going to sound hugely different depending on which part of the room you stand due to reflections. While bass might not sound so chest-pushingly loud outdoors at least it'll be 'clean'.

[The Funk]

Alex, when you say "specs" do you mean as quoted by AccuGroove?

Edited March 12, 2008 by The Funk

[alexclaber]

[quote name='The Funk' post='156072' date='Mar 12 2008, 03:27 PM']Alex, when you say "specs" do you mean as quoted by AccuGroove?[/quote]

Regarding the Whappo Grande, yes. It's actually a very nice speaker for adding fatness to a rig because it has plenty of Vd (Xmax x Sd) and good sensitivity and power handling down to ~50Hz but its specs really do it a disservice. From a DIY perspective it isn't such a great choice of speaker because it costs $600. But if you're going to stick it in a simple cab and then mark it up hugely, the visual and marketing impact of a 21" diameter driver is very effective indeed.

Alex

[The Funk]

Ok. Sorry, I get what Xmax is but what's Sd?

[elfabyanos]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='155968' date='Mar 12 2008, 01:52 PM']Au contraire. The best results below 40Hz are indoors, in rooms where the longest dimension is less than 14 feet, as that's where cabin gain at a rate of 12dB/octave will result in high enough SPL to hear it. To understand why google 'Equal Loudness curves'. To hear a 25Hz tone at the same level as a 100 Hz tone at 100dB the 25hz tone would have to be 120dB, and getting 120dB at 25 Hz outdoors even with a very large horn-loaded sub woofer would require about 1,000 watts. I've tested many subs outdoors, and at 25Hz and 100dB if not for the reading of the meter one would not even know there was any sound present.

To the OP, faggedaboutit, you don't need response to 28 Hz and couldn't use it even if you had it.


Not a bad choice, but does not perform as advertised.

[url="http://billfitzmaurice.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2362"]http://billfitzmaurice.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2362[/url][/quote]

You're absolutely bang on the money with this one. This is exactly how you get excellent sub bass response out of 20p 15" cones from Halfords in a car. A small hatch for example will have a natural bass tip up of 12db/8ve below about 90Hz, a large saloon below 75hz, a transit van below maybe 55-60 Hz, and small room maybe below 40hz. Most venues, even small ones though wouldn't get this effect until quite low, like 20hz. And outside the corner frequency is zero.

Incidentally it's why I prefer closed cabs, they have a 12db/8ve roll off (whereas ported drop off much quicker below fs) so you can easily match them to room effects. I used one in my car and designed the box myself and was brilliant (IMO!).

However, equal loudness curves are not to do with room effects, they represent the natural non-linear response of our ears.

Edited March 12, 2008 by elfabyanos