Mikey D Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 [quote name='P-T-P' post='156176' date='Mar 12 2008, 04:41 PM']Actually, you both missed it! I'll claim first use, think Mikey D mentioned it too.[/quote] Although I used it in differing grammatical situations 5 times...(I say, I, but I mean the wiki article I copied, I couldn't be bothered to explain it as I have a lot of practice to do. Probably 10 hours today... ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakenewmanbass Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 [quote name='P-T-P' post='156176' date='Mar 12 2008, 04:41 PM']Actually, you both missed it! I'll claim first use, think Mikey D mentioned it too.[/quote] oops need glasses!!! the headaches have been telling me that for ages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
queenofthedepths Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 (edited) [quote name='jakesbass' post='156310' date='Mar 12 2008, 08:17 PM']oops need glasses!!! the headaches have been telling me that for ages[/quote] Or you need to spend less time on basschat, staring at the computer screen! I think that's true of a great deal of us, though - drummers and loud cabs will do for our hearing while basschat ruins our eyesight Edited March 12, 2008 by queenofthedepths Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakenewmanbass Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 [quote name='queenofthedepths' post='156311' date='Mar 12 2008, 08:19 PM']Or you need to spend less time on basschat, staring at the computer screen! I think that's true of a great deal of us, though - drummers and loud cabs will do for our hearing while basschat ruins our eyesight[/quote] yep f***ed i am, got piles from sitting on the stone floor as well well I can't afford a chair when I've got £30000 worth of basses to spend on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broken Hero Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 [quote name='P-T-P' post='155881' date='Mar 12 2008, 11:45 AM']Sounds like we could do with a "Circle of 5ths" diagram to explain the key signatures (which leads us to the scales that go with them). I think the "D# scale" mentioned is just adding to the confusion as there is no key of D#, only Eb.[/quote] In theory you can quite happily have the key of D#... sure it is Eb but it's a different way of thinking and I have come across it in an audition before.. it is just a shift in thinking. The circle of fifths eliminates the need for double-sharps but they certainly exist in music theory. Maybe it does confuse the matter but hey, I'll stick to my guns and may be shot down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P-T-P Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 [quote name='Broken Hero' post='156675' date='Mar 13 2008, 01:00 PM']In theory you can quite happily have the key of D#... sure it is Eb but it's a different way of thinking and I have come across it in an audition before.. it is just a shift in thinking. The circle of fifths eliminates the need for double-sharps but they certainly exist in music theory. Maybe it does confuse the matter but hey, I'll stick to my guns and may be shot down.[/quote] Theoretically of course, but it's the kind of thinking that, IMHO, makes people turn their nose up at learning music theory. Absolutely there are double flats and double sharps but is it really useful to introduce them in trying to assist someone who's theory hasn't yet advanced that far? Similarly (if no moreso) with others talking about temperaments to be honest. Saying that enharmonic is the term used when describing the E#/F relationship is perfectly justified when trying to help someone trying to grasp the concept of why it is written as E# and not F. Referring back to a system(s) of tuning which was superceded in popular music over 100 years ago and where enharmonic carried a different meaning doesn't really help at this point. In more advanced study or even out of sheer interest if you're that way predisposed, then great, but in the context of answering the particular question, I just think it fudges the issue, even though I'm sure it was well intentioned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey D Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 Of course it was well intentioned, I see the forum as a place for learning and only answer if I know something about a subject (I wish only everyone did this), if they wanted to read more they can, they don't have to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
queenofthedepths Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 [quote name='Mikey D' post='156884' date='Mar 13 2008, 05:54 PM']Of course it was well intentioned, I see the forum as a place for learning and only answer if I know something about a subject (I wish only everyone did this), if they wanted to read more they can, they don't have to.[/quote] I appreciate it anyway - I've looked into wikipedia for more clarification and it's certainly food for thought Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Funk Posted March 14, 2008 Share Posted March 14, 2008 The simple answer to why you call it an E double sharp is that you already have one F in the scale and it is sharp. It just makes notation easier. (Although that many sharps will just look ugly). The simple answer to why you call a note a diminished 7th as opposed to a major 6th is because the former forms the 7th note of the corresponding scale and the latter the 6th note. The fact that you play E double sharp in exactly the same place as F, or the diminished 7th or major 6th in exactly the same place, on a practical level does not mean that learning about harmony - and the different contexts of a diminished 7th and a major 6th - is not useful. As tension and release form a big part of how music is put together it can be helpful to understand the different tensions and resolutions of a diminished 7th and a major 6th. (I think all of this has been said above). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakenewmanbass Posted March 14, 2008 Share Posted March 14, 2008 (edited) [quote name='The Funk' post='157144' date='Mar 14 2008, 02:52 AM']The simple answer to why you call it an E double sharp is that you already have one F in the scale and it is sharp. It just makes notation easier. (Although that many sharps will just look ugly). The simple answer to why you call a note a diminished 7th as opposed to a major 6th is because the former forms the 7th note of the corresponding scale and the latter the 6th note. The fact that you play E double sharp in exactly the same place as F, or the diminished 7th or major 6th in exactly the same place, on a practical level does not mean that learning about harmony - and the different contexts of a diminished 7th and a major 6th - is not useful. As tension and release form a big part of how music is put together it can be helpful to understand the different tensions and resolutions of a diminished 7th and a major 6th. (I think all of this has been said above).[/quote] Just for accuracy its E# not E## (E sharp not E double sharp) E double sharp would equal F# And I can't think of any circumstances where E## would legitimately exist. Edited March 14, 2008 by jakesbass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thedontcarebear Posted March 14, 2008 Author Share Posted March 14, 2008 I am amazed this thread is still going! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P-T-P Posted March 14, 2008 Share Posted March 14, 2008 [quote name='Mikey D' post='156884' date='Mar 13 2008, 05:54 PM']Of course it was well intentioned, I see the forum as a place for learning and only answer if I know something about a subject (I wish only everyone did this), if they wanted to read more they can, they don't have to.[/quote] Yeah, didn't mean to sound like I was having a go if that's how it came across. I agree it would be nice if more people contributed (myself included), just think the additional info might confuse matters more than it might help! [quote name='thedontcarebear' post='157218' date='Mar 14 2008, 09:28 AM']I am amazed this thread is still going![/quote] Yeah, look what you started. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peaty Posted March 14, 2008 Share Posted March 14, 2008 Fascinating stuff Mikey D if you are still reading this thread you mentioned back on page one that [quote name='Mikey D' post='156059' date='Mar 12 2008, 03:19 PM']Nope, thats why you get the Phythagorean comma when you go completely around the just tempered cycle of fifths, you don't end up on exactly the same note.[/quote] So should we think of it as a spiral of fifths or is the difference so small as to be undetectable to all but the most well trained ears? Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
queenofthedepths Posted March 14, 2008 Share Posted March 14, 2008 [quote name='dlloyd' post='157274' date='Mar 14 2008, 10:50 AM']Key of F## major? Certainly legitimate... admittedly downright odd and unnecessary. Most of the time I see double sharps denoted as 'x' rather than '##'[/quote] Yeah, it would seem that any note with any number of sharps or flats after it would be legitimate, if you arrived there as a result of numerous key changes... I was explaining all this about equal temperament to my friend last night and mentioned that if you go around the cycle (or spiral, I like that idea) of fifths from Ab, you'll end up with a Bbbb - I fail to see how it could be anything else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
queenofthedepths Posted March 14, 2008 Share Posted March 14, 2008 [quote name='dlloyd' post='157284' date='Mar 14 2008, 11:08 AM']You'll get there through the 'linear scale of fourths' but never through the 'linear scale of fifths'.[/quote] Ah okaeey - I'm pretty sure that's what I did - going down in fourths and equating this to fifths... if I'd gone up in fifths I'd have come to G#? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakenewmanbass Posted March 14, 2008 Share Posted March 14, 2008 (edited) [quote name='dlloyd' post='157274' date='Mar 14 2008, 10:50 AM']Key of F## major? Certainly legitimate... admittedly downright odd and unnecessary. Most of the time I see double sharps denoted as 'x' rather than '##'[/quote] I was explaining in reference to the quote in my post that E double sharp is not F which is what the previous poster had stated. I think the notion of legitimacy of any note with any number of sharps or flats after it is a little trite and unnecessary. Hence the existence of the point at which we travel from sharp keys into flat keys and vice versa. And while I don't have a problem with those accuracies being pointed out, it did lead to you mis-quoting me and contradicting what I accurately said. Edited March 14, 2008 by jakesbass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakenewmanbass Posted March 14, 2008 Share Posted March 14, 2008 [quote name='dlloyd' post='157353' date='Mar 14 2008, 12:46 PM']Of course it is. I doubt there is a real example of an E## out there, unless the composer was being awkward for awkwardness' sake. F##, C##, G## on the other hand are fairly common. Not sure I know what you mean. I didn't edit your quote in any way... how did I misquote you?[/quote] Sorry I didn't really mean mis-quote. But E double sharp [b][i]is not[/i][/b] F. E double sharp would end up as F sharp.E sharp is F because there are only semi tones between E and F likewise B and C Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakenewmanbass Posted March 14, 2008 Share Posted March 14, 2008 [quote name='dlloyd' post='157381' date='Mar 14 2008, 01:19 PM']Perhaps I should have edited the quote by deleting everything except the line I was answering (about the legitimacy of E##). I did not disagree with the rest of the post. Dumb argument huh? [/quote] Doh! Text can be sh*t huh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey D Posted March 14, 2008 Share Posted March 14, 2008 [quote name='Peaty' post='157271' date='Mar 14 2008, 10:41 AM']Fascinating stuff Mikey D if you are still reading this thread you mentioned back on page one that So should we think of it as a spiral of fifths or is the difference so small as to be undetectable to all but the most well trained ears? Pete[/quote] As has already been stated this is only in just temperment, not equal temperment. Don't worry about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Funk Posted March 15, 2008 Share Posted March 15, 2008 [quote name='jakesbass' post='157212' date='Mar 14 2008, 09:23 AM']Just for accuracy its E# not E## (E sharp not E double sharp) E double sharp would equal F# And I can't think of any circumstances where E## would legitimately exist.[/quote] Sorry, I meant E# Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutToPlayJazz Posted March 16, 2008 Share Posted March 16, 2008 As to your original point about the E#, the traditional way to notate a chromatic scale is to use the sharp variant of any given chromatic note (where necessary) while ascending & the enharmonic equivalent flat notes when descending. Although, the only place I'd expect to find an E# would be in an F# minor/major scale. Also, the E# would be used as the accidental raised 7th note in the key of F# Minor (relative minor of A Major.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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