Can Funk Be Taught?

[Bloodaxe]

+1 for Jaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaames Brooooooooooooooooooooown,

But a bit of Koko Taylor doesn't go amiss either.

[Faithless]

If swing, if latin, if RnB and all other forms of music with specific time and phrasing nuances can be taught, how do you explain that funk cannot, [i]excluding [/i]'feel', 'groove', 'time' and other attributes that contribute to [i]every [/i]music form anyway, rather than one specific genre (that is pointlessly mistified )?

The thing is that listening is a [i]huge [/i]part of tuition process itself - music is about listening first of all, so what interests me is why people try to separate listening and tuition, when they're integral parts, no matter how you look at it.

Edited August 22, 2011 by Faithless

[lojo]

This is what I love about music and sport, whilst physical and academic approaches can teach to how to do it, there is always the feeling, focus and instinct side of things which are required and cant really be defined, measured or labeled. NO matter what the debate or reason to say one aspect is important, teachable or unteachable, no one can define a real answer or stat sheet to display any proper answers.


To answer if funk can be taught, you'd first have to define what funk is for the question

If funk is in its simplest form a basic line of root then some "other notes" with spaces, like bootsy explains, then anyone with a sense of time could play those lines and get people dancing

So the question then is, the line could be taught , but the sense of time couldn't (or could it?) ..........

[Dr.Dave]

[quote name='risingson' post='1347703' date='Aug 22 2011, 01:52 AM']No, you've got to grow up and be listening to that kind of music, it's got to be in your blood. You can't teach a 'feel', which is what funk is.[/quote]

All styles of music come down to 'feel' at their best - and , no , that cannot be taught in my opinion. It can be explained to a student , though , that with a genuine love for a stye of music , and a strong desire to play it for that reason , a feel for it will come naturally.

So - funk can be 'learned'. Desire means anything can be learned. I come across so many people , in life , who want to be taught but have no real desire to learn. It's a straight responsibility shift - 'I never learned x purely because I wasn't taught it'. Rubbish.

[Bilbo]

If it can be learned, it can be taught.

[JTUK]

I'd say no. I think you can listen and be heavily influenced and you can get to a very decent level.. but sometimes it is all down to what YOU have.

Some have it and some don't.

[thisnameistaken]

I think whatever the genre of music, funk included, you will sound more authentic if you listen to it and dig it and it's part of your musical lifestyle. Whether any particular style of music can be 'taught', I suppose yes they all can, but your lessons will be more successful if you do a lot of homework.

[BottomE]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1347742' date='Aug 22 2011, 08:23 AM']If it can be learned, it can be taught.[/quote]
It depends what you mean by learn. If you mean regurgitating stuff that is in a book or from a teacher then you are right. However, creating your own lines with the right feel and mood is a different bag of snakes which is what i think the OP was about. I work with a gifted keyboard player and he is technically very good. On occassion he playes too many notes and the space necessary to generate the groove is lost - the song stops being funky. When we talked about it he insisted on the notes being "correct theoretically" which they are - but they just ain't funky. Thats the quintessential part that comes from listening. No amount of teaching is going to address that.

[Fat Rich]

In my experience most of the funk comes from the drummer, and [b]very[/b] broadly speaking funk drummers fall into two categories:

1: Drummers with great feel whose beats make you want to jump about, sometimes not the most technical of drummers but can groove really hard. They seem to have looser influences people like Stevie Wonder, the New Orleans drummers, John Bonham... whatever the genre, they play grooves I can't sit still to. Some put a small amount of swing to almost everything they play which makes them fun and inspiring to play bass to. For me this is where the funk is.

2: Drummers with great time but lacking that certain something, often technically excellent but their timing is a little too regimented. Their influences seem to be the more produced stuff like Donald Fagan, EWF and super tight drummers like Dave Weckl (although he seems to have loosened up a bit recently). Playing bass along to some of these guys is about as inspiring as playing to a metronome, most are happy for me to push and pull the groove a little to try and bring some life to it, but a few just don't get it.

All a massive generalisation of course, there are some drummers that can vary the feel effortlessly, many have less control and have good days and bad days. Or drummers like me who is so rubbish it's all academic

If your drummer is really funky and you've listened to plenty of different kinds of funk, you probably won't need to be taught.

Edit:

[quote name='BottomE' post='1347795' date='Aug 22 2011, 09:53 AM']It depends what you mean by learn. If you mean regurgitating stuff that is in a book or from a teacher then you are right. However, creating your own lines with the right feel and mood is a different bag of snakes which is what i think the OP was about. I work with a gifted keyboard player and he is technically very good. On occassion he playes too many notes and the space necessary to generate the groove is lost - the song stops being funky. When we talked about it he insisted on the notes being "correct theoretically" which they are - but they just ain't funky. Thats the quintessential part that comes from listening. No amount of teaching is going to address that.[/quote]

Leaving space is super important, it's the gaps and where you put them that increases the anticipation and makes a groove really funky.

Edited August 22, 2011 by Fat Rich

[Doddy]

Interesting point about the drummers.....I disagree almost completely,but interesting point non the less.

If you're going to ask if funk can be taught,I think you have to ask if any style can be taught. Sure, it's about 'the groove'(?),but so is every other style of music. You can teach and learn any style of music,but it's up to you how you apply it. You can learn about Funk or Jazz or Zydeco or whatever,but you need to listen to it to get the full understanding.

Edit...
[quote name='Fat Rich' post='1347812' date='Aug 22 2011, 10:16 AM']Leaving space is super important, it's the gaps and where you put them that increases the anticipation and makes a groove really funky.[/quote]

Rocco?
You can still be busy and retain a great feel.

Edited August 22, 2011 by Doddy

[Fat Rich]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1347838' date='Aug 22 2011, 10:40 AM']Interesting point about the drummers.....I disagree almost completely,but interesting point non the less.

...,[/quote]

Fair enough, care to elaborate?

[quote name='Doddy' post='1347838' date='Aug 22 2011, 10:40 AM']Rocco?
You can still be busy and retain a great feel.[/quote]

Very true, Rocco is super funky but he often "makes" space by heavy use of accents and some serious muting.

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='BottomE' post='1347795' date='Aug 22 2011, 09:53 AM']It depends what you mean by learn. If you mean regurgitating stuff that is in a book or from a teacher then you are right. However, creating your own lines with the right feel and mood is a different bag of snakes which is what i think the OP was about. I work with a gifted keyboard player and he is technically very good. On occassion he playes too many notes and the space necessary to generate the groove is lost - the song stops being funky. When we talked about it he insisted on the notes being "correct theoretically" which they are - but they just ain't funky. Thats the quintessential part that comes from listening. No amount of teaching is going to address that.[/quote]

Totally agree.

[Doddy]

[quote name='Fat Rich' post='1347847' date='Aug 22 2011, 10:57 AM'] Fair enough, care to elaborate?.[/quote]

Sure....
You mention Drummers influenced by Weckl and the guys who play with Fagen as having regimented
time and being like a metronome to play with. I mean really? Fagen used guys like Jeff Porcaro,
Rick Marotta and Steve Gadd-these guys have all got a serious groove. Even a player like Weckl,who
has had a lot of detractors over the years,has a seriously good feel-unfortunately most people don't
see past the chops.
On the other hand,you mention Bonham as being looser and grooving. I'll be honest-I don't get it. I've
never found Bonham (or Zeppelin in general) to be funky or groovy or whatever. I get what you mean by
mentioning Stevie and the N.O. Drummers (especially Stanton Moore and Johnny Vidacovich) but not Bonham.

[risingson]

[quote name='Fat Rich' post='1347812' date='Aug 22 2011, 10:16 AM']In my experience most of the funk comes from the drummer, and [b]very[/b] broadly speaking funk drummers fall into two categories:

1: Drummers with great feel whose beats make you want to jump about, sometimes not the most technical of drummers but can groove really hard. They seem to have looser influences people like Stevie Wonder, the New Orleans drummers, John Bonham... whatever the genre, they play grooves I can't sit still to. Some put a small amount of swing to almost everything they play which makes them fun and inspiring to play bass to. For me this is where the funk is.

2: Drummers with great time but lacking that certain something, often technically excellent but their timing is a little too regimented. Their influences seem to be the more produced stuff like Donald Fagan, EWF and super tight drummers like Dave Weckl (although he seems to have loosened up a bit recently). Playing bass along to some of these guys is about as inspiring as playing to a metronome, most are happy for me to push and pull the groove a little to try and bring some life to it, but a few just don't get it.[/quote]

I agree with the sentiment of what you're saying, but whilst the guys that have played with Donald Fagan are all excellent drummers with incredible feels, they were all being told to play as cleanly as possible because that's what Fagan and Becker wanted for the tracks they performed on. Bernard Purdie and Steve Jordan for example are two of the most hardcore funk drummers I've ever heard and can get as low down and dirty as any of James Brown's drummers.

It's hard when the boundaries of the categories get blurred like this, but I understand what you're saying.

[quote name='Doddy' post='1347851' date='Aug 22 2011, 11:11 AM']I've never found Bonham (or Zeppelin in general) to be funky or groovy or whatever.[/quote]

With respect Doddy, you can't have listened to very much Zeppelin then!




I remember watching Paul Turner from Jamiroquai telling a few of us that he loved playing along to AC/DC tracks like Back In Black because they were so 'funky'. And he's right, it does have an undeniably funky feel to it.

[Doddy]

[quote name='risingson' post='1347865' date='Aug 22 2011, 11:44 AM']With respect Doddy, you can't have listened to very much Zeppelin then! .[/quote]
I have,and I don't get it at all.

[Bilbo]

Sorry, guys, but I don't buy this 'its the spooky magic mojo thing you either have or you haven't got'. You'll be saying only Black people can play Funk next.

The ability to teach and to learn are things that are central to the sharing of any concept, including what makes something 'funky'. If I say to someone, for instance, 'leave more space' and they don't, they only have themselves to blame for not being funkier. I can teach it, they aren't in a space to learn it. If they do 'leave more space', as was suggested, then they will have moved forward in learning how to be funky. Put 100 other related concepts through that same process, including listening to funk, and you will have a funky bass player. WHat is the difference between that and a kid learning to phrase as part of a string section, or a horn player to phrase in a saxophone section? You learn the idiom from those who teach you, those you play with and those you listen to. Funk is not a magic ingredient for the chosen few.

To suggest any 'skill' is a natural gift that some have and others don't is a dead end.

[cheddatom]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1347877' date='Aug 22 2011, 11:56 AM']To suggest any 'skill' is a natural gift that some have and others don't is a dead end.[/quote]

I totally agree, but I think the point was that you can't learn funk from lessons, you have to learn it by yourself, by listening to a lot of funk.

Personally I don't agree with that as I consider myself to be seriously f***ing funky and I hardly ever listen to funk, but then i'm sure my head's too big

[JTUK]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1347877' date='Aug 22 2011, 11:56 AM']Sorry, guys, but I don't buy this 'its the spooky magic mojo thing you either have or you haven't got'. You'll be saying only Black people can play Funk next.

The ability to teach and to learn are things that are central to the sharing of any concept, including what makes something 'funky'. If I say to someone, for instance, 'leave more space' and they don't, they only have themselves to blame for not being funkier. I can teach it, they aren't in a space to learn it. If they do 'leave more space', as was suggested, then they will have moved forward in learning how to be funky. Put 100 other related concepts through that same process, including listening to funk, and you will have a funky bass player. WHat is the difference between that and a kid learning to phrase as part of a string section, or a horn player to phrase in a saxophone section? You learn the idiom from those who teach you, those you play with and those you listen to. Funk is not a magic ingredient for the chosen few.

To suggest any 'skill' is a natural gift that some have and others don't is a dead end.[/quote]


Can't go with this at all. Othewise we would all be world class this or that..if only we put the time in.

Sorry, but that is nonsense.


I agree that pointers/teaching/influence can get you so far...and this is relative... but some people can go miles and others don't get off first bass.

[Fat Rich]

[quote name='risingson' post='1347865' date='Aug 22 2011, 11:44 AM']I agree with the sentiment of what you're saying, but whilst the guys that have played with Donald Fagan are all excellent drummers with incredible feels, they were all being told to play as cleanly as possible because that's what Fagan and Becker wanted for the tracks they performed on. Bernard Purdie and Steve Jordan for example are two of the most hardcore funk drummers I've ever heard and can get as low down and dirty as any of James Brown's drummers.

It's hard when the boundaries of the categories get blurred like this, but I understand what you're saying.

.......[/quote]

Yup, I agree entirely which is why I listed Donald Fagan as an example rather than the great players who played on his songs. There's an insight into how he works in Anthony Jackson's section here: [url="http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/newbay/bp_sessionlegends/index.php#/0"]http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/newbay/bp_...ds/index.php#/0[/url] which to me explains why I don't feel the groove on much of Fagan's material. That's not to say it's not good, just not as funky as it could have been

[Ross]

Creativity isn't something you can learn, but through learning you can gather the tools and the knowledge to express yourself in the way you wish. This is assuming you want to sound similar to previous artists and fit into a genre playing what we in western culture consider in tune.
For this reason I'd never join a covers band, music for me isn't about playing, it's about expression.

So can funk be taught? Other peoples funk can, it is down to the player whether they want to play that funky music.

Edited August 22, 2011 by Ross

[whynot]

Having had no lessons and a self confessed lazy learner, I'm probably the last person who should comment in a thread like this.
But any style can be taught, technically.
Where it falls down is the players lack of ability in being able to deliver the style with feel, emotion and all the other bits that are in-built.
Oh yes, there is a grove and swing in much of Bonham's playing.

[Stan_da_man]

Anyone can learn it. Once you can jam, you learn the 'feel'. Once you have the feel, you can do anything.

[ironside1966]

I think he people who say funk can’t be taught just don’t understand what good lessons are. A good teacher will help you developed a groove and musical ideas, examples in books are just that the ideas, once you have learnt a few you develop your own, in the same way you do when you hear a good bass line.
Funk is about the groove but it is also about he musical arrangements the band. If you understand how the music is arranged this will help you develop better bass lines
Most of the great players started life in reading bands.

[Bilbo]

[quote name='JTUK' post='1347907' date='Aug 22 2011, 12:32 PM']Can't go with this at all. Othewise we would all be world class this or that..if only we put the time in.

Sorry, but that is nonsense.


I agree that pointers/teaching/influence can get you so far...and this is relative... but some people can go miles and others don't get off first bass.[/quote]

Because the teaching input will only ever be part of the equation. Its not just about spending time with your instrumet, but about what you spend that time doing. Its not just about what you listen to but about what you hear. You can teach it if the student is in the right space to learn. If I took a 12 year old classical flautist and tried to teach her funk bass, I would need to get here whole head space changed which would take longer than it would a fifteen year old bass player who grew up in a house full of reggae. BUt if the 12 year old kid listened to his teacher and WANTED to play funk bass, it woudl get there quicker that the 15 year old who was so ficed on being a reggae bass player that FUnk was only something he toyed with. Its an attitude to the learning not the difficulty of the subject. Playing Funk bass is not a magic thing, its a practise and listening thing.

And we would all be world class if we put the time in and focussed on that goal at the expense of everything else. But most of us get distracted by life. Which is also cool because life can be funky as f***.

[whynot]

I've known many drummers who are technically spot on, have been playing for years in a live environment, practise daily.... but there sense of timing and feel leaves a lot to be desired.
I've played with various musos, various instruments. Great readers. In some cases cannot busk or jam and once again lack that all important feel.
Are we saying they didn't have good teachers or is there something else more to do with the make-up of that person?