Can Funk Be Taught?

[Bilbo]

[quote name='whynot' post='1347997' date='Aug 22 2011, 01:42 PM']Are we saying they didn't have good teachers or is there something else more to do with the make-up of that person?[/quote]

Its because they focussed too much attention on one skill set and not enough on another. Could have been their teacher, could have been themselves - coudl simply be that the trait you love in a player is not something they value or aspire to. But, if you hold onto the fact that we are all life-long learners, it may be sufficient to say that they are not yet complete in terms of mastering the instrument they play. To suggest it is because there is 'something missing', some inherent ability that a few chosen people are gifted with, is utter nonsense. The only relationship that determines how good people are is the amount of time they spent playing the music. Most of the great funk players are probably funk players who only ever play funk so, it stands to reason that they will be better at it than people who also do Country, shows, jazz, rock, folk and zydeco. The best players in most genres are specialists. Jack of all trades Maseter on none etc. But to suggest that it is innate in some and not in others is a dangerous road to go down. It implies superiority through an accident of birth.

[redstriper]

Just like to say that I completely agree with Bilbo and that's a first

I've played nothing but reggae for 25 years and just started learning funk, I'm well out of my comfort zone and see it as a huge challenge - wish I'd started sooner...





PS:
Still don't like Wals though.

[whynot]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1348026' date='Aug 22 2011, 02:12 PM']To suggest it is because there is 'something missing', some inherent ability that a few chosen people are gifted with, is utter nonsense. The only relationship that determines how good people are is the amount of time they spent playing the music.
But to suggest that it is innate in some and not in others is a dangerous road to go down. It implies superiority through an accident of birth.[/quote]
I'm certainly not implying superiority so apologise if it came over as that and am frankly pretty pissed off that you would even suggest that I was trying to make that point.
But also to suggest we are all capable of the same standard is also utter nonsense. Surely you agree we all have different strengths and weaknesses?
I am what you would call Semi-pro as are many on here, and I'm well aware of my weaknesses. And for the record I have the utmost respect for players of whatever instrument, beginners or not.

[Bilbo]

[quote name='whynot' post='1348040' date='Aug 22 2011, 02:43 PM']I'm certainly not implying superiority so apologise if it came over as that and am frankly pretty pissed off that you would even suggest that I was trying to make that point.
But also to suggest we are all capable of the same standard is also utter nonsense. Surely you agree we all have different strengths and weaknesses?[/quote]

My point is simply that what determines your strengths and weaknesses is what you have and have not practised, not some illisive 'it' that you have ot haven't got. If a player can't move forward in some area, it is usually a lack of application and of investment. I have never got beyond the basics of tapping and slapping but it is not because I can't do it (I once was able to play Motherlode and 5G by Jeff Berlin and a couple if Stu Hamm pieces etc). I fail to get good at those areas because I actually don't really value those elements in music and saw no real purpose in investing the time it would take to get to a Manring or Wooten level. Now when we are talking about playing funk, we are not talking about techniques that take thousands of hours to learn like Manring's stuff, we are often talking about relatively minimal lines played in a certain way. To suggest that playing something like 'Cissy Strut' or 'Good Times' can't be taught is, in my mind, a nonsense.

[risingson]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1348072' date='Aug 22 2011, 03:29 PM']My point is simply that what determines your strengths and weaknesses is what you have and have not practised, not some illisive 'it' that you have ot haven't got. If a player can't move forward in some area, it is usually a lack of application and of investment. I have never got beyond the basics of tapping and slapping but it is not because I can't do it (I once was able to play Motherlode and 5G by Jeff Berlin and a couple if Stu Hamm pieces etc). I fail to get good at those areas because I actually don't really value those elements in music and saw no real purpose in investing the time it would take to get to a Manring or Wooten level. Now when we are talking about playing funk, we are not talking about techniques that take thousands of hours to learn like Manring's stuff, we are often talking about relatively minimal lines played in a certain way. To suggest that playing something like 'Cissy Strut' or 'Good Times' can't be taught is, in my mind, a nonsense.[/quote]

I still disagree. Teaching can only strengthen and broaden the foundations of an existing talent and develop a better understanding of this talent... but unless you have a passion for a certain kind of music and have submerged yourself for years at playing and listening to it then it cannot be taught. You would agree then for example that a person who has never listened to jazz in their life can be taught over a few hours how to play like Charlie Parker from scratch? It's an extreme example but I don't see much of a difference.

Teaching is fine up to a point, but there's just no way you're going to be able to play like these guys without the personal investment of your own time and passion for that music. It's not a framework that teachers can suddenly offer to a student over a couple of teaching hours. The best the teacher will do is offer them the means to explore a certain style of music through introduction and example.

[cheddatom]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1348072' date='Aug 22 2011, 03:29 PM']My point is simply that what determines your strengths and weaknesses is what you have and have not practised...[/quote]

People do have a lot of physical a psychological differences though. I'm perfectly happy to accept that I would not make a good footballer, no matter how many lessons I had. That's not to say that football can't be taught, but it is to say that some people can't reach a certain standard.

I used to think that every human being started life a "blank slate" and from then on only their experiences would shape their personality/life choices. Now I tend to think this attitude is a bit naive.

but yeh, i'm sure anyone who [i]wants[/i] to learn funk could master it, even if they didn't have the dexterity to wow us with their "chops".

[whynot]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1348072' date='Aug 22 2011, 03:29 PM']To suggest that playing something like 'Cissy Strut' or 'Good Times' can't be taught is, in my mind, a nonsense.[/quote]
There is no such thing as 'it', which we can both agree on. And I never intended to suggest there was.
To break it down to a couple of lines like these probably helps, although it appears almost pointless discussing it at that level. But... I have heard Good Times played well, and not very well. My idea of 'not very well' is the bloody thing not grooving, for the want of a better word... which probably brings us back to the OP.

[Skol303]

Within reason, I believe any musician can be taught to play any genre convincingly. This happens all the time with session and orchestral musicians. I mean, it'd be a rare thing for a concert cellist to say they "just aren't Baroque enough to play Bach", and yet we believe that funk is somehow magically separate to this? I doubt it.

I grew up in a household that listened to a lot of Northern Soul. Yet I have a friend, who's a professional musician, who can rattle out soul basslines much better than I can - even though in technical terms they're simple enough for me to play confidently. Why? Because he has a much better understanding of musicianship and timing than I do. And he hasn't got that from listening to records (he's a rock fan, anyhow), he's got it from spending bucketloads of hours practicing. And yes, buckets are the official measurement of practice time...!

Of course there are always fuzzy edges to this kind of discussion. There'll always be the kid who grew up listening to funk and is the funkiest mother-funker in town as a result. But then there'll also be his brother, who shares the same background yet now plays concertina in the local Morris dancing troupe.

Go figure.

[Blademan_98]

Well, I went out and bought 'The greatest Funk album ever' and I am playing it whilst typing this.

I think the bass lines are simple but effective.

The timing is the issue.

I shall continue in my quest to play funk.

If anyone fancies the challenge of teaching me............

Edited August 22, 2011 by Blademan_98

[Bilbo]

[quote name='risingson' post='1348109' date='Aug 22 2011, 04:07 PM']I still disagree. Teaching can only strengthen and broaden the foundations of an existing talent and develop a better understanding of this talent... but unless you have a passion for a certain kind of music and have submerged yourself for years at playing and listening to it then it cannot be taught. You would agree then for example that a person who has never listened to jazz in their life can be taught over a few hours how to play like Charlie Parker from scratch? It's an extreme example but I don't see much of a difference.

Teaching is fine up to a point, but there's just no way you're going to be able to play like these guys without the personal investment of your own time and passion for that music. It's not a framework that teachers can suddenly offer to a student over a couple of teaching hours. The best the teacher will do is offer them the means to explore a certain style of music through introduction and example.[/quote]

Noone said it would be easy! THe statement was it cannot be taught, not it cannot be taught quickly. Your argument shows only that it can't be taught in a couple of lessons. THAT I would agree with. But that does not mean it cannot be taught. Took me 17 lessons to learn to drive. I reckon I could get Blademan up to speed in 17 hours

[JTUK]

Nope..not wishing to go round the houses with this, but just to say that some people have inherrent aptitude for things and others will never get that..no matter what they do.

If we are talking about local level, a lot of that is down to time put in...but saying that..I know people with 30 years of playing and it still doesn't work.
3 bass players can be taught the same slap line and it will feel/sound differently..some will just get it..others will fabricate it..and it will sound ok..but there is something missing.
Same thing... it is like hitting a golf ball. Every one can hit the thing, but strike it properly is a real skill and art..and it is hand to eye co-ordination. That is why Mclroy is a complete stand-out in his field..all the other guys know the sound of a pure strike and then they look round and see it is Rory. Can't be taught. You can put building blocks in place but you are seriously blowing smoke up a backside or two to suggest all are equal but for opportunity and time.

Sorry, if I have skiimed the last page or two... but some stuff here is so far off the beam. It might suit teachers to suggest they can get you to a certain place..but it really all depends what you bring to the party. It depends when you the player runs out of steam.

IMO, of course.

[Blademan_98]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1348149' date='Aug 22 2011, 05:04 PM']Noone said it would be easy! THe statement was it cannot be taught, not it cannot be taught quickly. Your argument shows only that it can't be taught in a couple of lessons. THAT I would agree with. But that does not mean it cannot be taught. Took me 17 lessons to learn to drive. [b]I reckon I could get Blademan up to speed in 17 hours[/b] [/quote]

Funk by the weekend

Cool

[BottomE]

[quote name='Blademan_98' post='1348142' date='Aug 22 2011, 04:53 PM']Well, I went out and bought 'The greatest Funk album ever' and I am playing it whilst typing this.

I think the bass lines are simple but effective.

The timing is the issue.

I shall continue in my quest to play funk.

If anyone fancies the challenge of teaching me............

[/quote]
I am just thinking of all the great tunes and bands you may have never heard if you are new to funk. Actually makes me quite jealous.

Enjoy.

[risingson]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1348149' date='Aug 22 2011, 05:04 PM']Noone said it would be easy! THe statement was it cannot be taught, not it cannot be taught quickly. Your argument shows only that it can't be taught in a couple of lessons. THAT I would agree with. But that does not mean it cannot be taught. Took me 17 lessons to learn to drive. I reckon I could get Blademan up to speed in 17 hours [/quote]

Learning scales and theory is like learning to drive. The stuff you get taught by an instructor will help you meet the needs of any given situation... in theory. However, most people will tell new drivers that when the time comes and you've passed your test and are let loose on the road, that's when you'll actually realise that all the lessons were a very small part of the bigger picture, and that the real learning curve starts when you rack up the miles solo. Experience and familiarity with the demands of the road. Music is exactly the same, you just can't teach people how to groove, it's got to be instinctive. You won't get that instinct through lessons.

[lojo]

[quote name='risingson' post='1348278' date='Aug 22 2011, 07:20 PM']You won't get that instinct through lessons.[/quote]


Strange how this can work both ways, Obviously there are those who know all the theory and use it in jaw dropping ways, improvising around any theme. However I've also played with a few piano players who can play anything in front of them, but cant do anything off page. Is that down to the core of them or has this been the way they've been taught ?

[Pete Academy]

Some great comments.

On a listening level, the AWB's early stuff was very influential. Highly recommended.

Has anyone enrolled with Bootsy's Funk University?

Has anyone had lessons from a teacher to learn this style? Has it worked?

[risingson]

[quote name='lojo' post='1348301' date='Aug 22 2011, 07:35 PM']Strange how this can work both ways, Obviously there are those who know all the theory and use it in jaw dropping ways, improvising around any theme. However I've also played with a few piano players who can play anything in front of them, but cant do anything off page. Is that down to the core of them or has this been the way they've been taught ?[/quote]

Without straying into an argument that I've seen many times before on this forum, you need everything to be the best musician you can possibly be. Great theoretical knowledge, great feel and instinct, and great reading skills as well. However, depending on what area of music your personal tastes lie, maybe only a few of these skills will be applicable to you and therefore you'll choose to develop these skills more than the rest.

The kinds of players you describe generally come from a classical background, if I was to generalise in a massive way. For a violinist in an orchestra playing a big concerto, it would be seriously frowned upon if you started to play what wasn't written down in front of you, and that's fine because the music is written in that way and doesn't call for improvisation. Classical music is about controlling orchestras and freedom of expression comes from the composer, not the players.

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='lojo' post='1348301' date='Aug 22 2011, 07:35 PM']Strange how this can work both ways, Obviously there are those who know all the theory and use it in jaw dropping ways, improvising around any theme. However I've also played with a few piano players who can play anything in front of them, but cant do anything off page. Is that down to the core of them or has this been the way they've been taught ?[/quote]

I used to get this all the time in a previous shop I worked in. Classically trained pianists that couldn't pick out a tune unless it was written down. Very snobby.

One particular piano teacher was asked by her pupil to go through the Associated Board's Jazz Piano Exam course. She came in one day and said: 'What does this mean...play with a swing feel?'

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='risingson' post='1348312' date='Aug 22 2011, 07:44 PM']Without straying into an argument that I've seen many times before on this forum, you need everything to be the best musician you can possibly be. Great theoretical knowledge, great feel and instinct, and great reading skills as well. However, depending on what area of music your personal tastes lie, maybe only a few of these skills will be applicable to you and therefore you'll choose to develop these skills more than the rest.

The kinds of players you describe generally come from a classical background, if I was to generalise in a massive way. For a violinist in an orchestra playing a big concerto, it would be seriously frowned upon if you started to play what wasn't written down in front of you, and that's fine because the music is written in that way and doesn't call for improvisation. Classical music is about controlling orchestras and freedom of expression comes from the composer, not the players.[/quote]

Good post.

[steve-bbb]

Track written and bass by Byron Miller

[Josh]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='1348306' date='Aug 22 2011, 07:40 PM']Has anyone had lessons from a teacher to learn this style? Has it worked?[/quote]

I was taught about playing on the one briefly in college by a great local bassist called Dave Savage. It's stuck with me ever since and I thank him for giving me that understanding which I'm still working on now, and that was 4 years ago.

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='steve-bbb' post='1348319' date='Aug 22 2011, 07:47 PM']

Track written and bass by Byron Miller[/quote]

Amazing track.

[Blademan_98]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='1348306' date='Aug 22 2011, 07:40 PM']Some great comments.

On a listening level, the AWB's early stuff was very influential. Highly recommended.

[b]Has anyone enrolled with Bootsy's Funk University? [/b]

Has anyone had lessons from a teacher to learn this style? Has it worked?[/quote]

Wow I didn't know that existed.

Thanks for the heads up

If I was earning, I would sign up

I will return to lessons once gainfully employed.

[Pete Academy]

I would personally recommend a few months of listening as well as practising.

[Blademan_98]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='1348325' date='Aug 22 2011, 07:51 PM']I would personally recommend a few months of listening as well as practising.[/quote]

Good advice and something I intend to do.