MoonBassAlpha Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 Hi All I just scored a couple of 3" tweeters, rated at 40W each with the view adding a little sparkle to the top end of my Barefaced Compact. I'm only running with a Shuttle 3.0 (175W @8ohm) They have a simple cap xover at 5kHz, so I assume the power handling will be fine. Any suggestions as to the best orientation (angled, straight, vertically aligned or just doesn't matter) and what kind of box to put 'em in. I've got loads of 6mm ply lying around and a spare Speakon socket. Hit me up! Cheers Jules (MBA) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 Either vertical or cross-fired. But with a 1st order high-pass I wouldn't count on them lasting very long. 3rd order is the minimum acceptable IME. And if they're low sensitivity home hi-fi or autosound tweeters they won't contribute much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoonBassAlpha Posted August 21, 2011 Author Share Posted August 21, 2011 I should have put what (little) detail I have of them. They're of a type used in old Trace Elliot PA cabs (NOS) and 105dB sensitivity, apparently. I see what you're saying Bill about the xover though, this will only be 6dB down at 2.5KHz (or is that 9?) Thanks for the input though, I really value your opinion. Cheers Jules Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 [quote name='MoonBassAlpha' post='1347573' date='Aug 21 2011, 04:48 PM']I should have put what (little) detail I have of them. They're of a type used in old Trace Elliot PA cabs (NOS) and 105dB sensitivity, apparently. I see what you're saying Bill about the xover though, this will only be 6dB down at 2.5KHz (or is that 9?) Thanks for the input though, I really value your opinion. Cheers Jules[/quote]If they originally ran with a 5kHz first order filter then they could probably be run to at least 3kHz with third order filtering yet still have far better protection. That's key, as not even tens are capable of decent off-axis response above 2.5kHz. It would be good to know exactly what they are to be sure of what their capability is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoonBassAlpha Posted August 22, 2011 Author Share Posted August 22, 2011 Tweets arrived this morning. They are Le Son (Brasil) and some kind of piezo but with a transformer built in. Can't find much in a quick search, but the us patent 4845776 suggests they are a bit different to standard piezos. Looks like SWR might have used them at some point too. Hopefully not junk, but I don't want to destroy them straight off! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 [quote name='MoonBassAlpha' post='1347834' date='Aug 22 2011, 05:38 AM']Tweets arrived this morning. They are Le Son (Brasil) and some kind of piezo but with a transformer built in. Can't find much in a quick search, but the us patent 4845776 suggests they are a bit different to standard piezos. Looks like SWR might have used them at some point too. Hopefully not junk, but I don't want to destroy them straight off![/quote]It all depends on their impedance. If the transformer results in a standard 4 or 8 ohm load then you can use a filter configured for that. A standard piezo is a high impedance capacitive load and requires something entirely different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoonBassAlpha Posted August 22, 2011 Author Share Posted August 22, 2011 Re reading the original ad: "Pair of New Trace Elliot LeSon WRT300 High Frequency Tweeters 40W RMS PA/Hi-Fi Speaker. New Old Stock - these tweeters have been stored in a sealed box for about 14 years are in mint condiditon, have never been used but have been fully tested. They were used in various Trace products including the TAPA Acoustic PA System and the Revo 8 Monitors. We chose them as they sound excellent and are extremly reliable; we used 1000s of them and never had a failure. They were made for Trace by LeSon of Brazil, famous for their magnetic phono cartridges and made to a very high standard. They have a built-in crossover at around 5KHz and have a high impedance so can just be added to any system to extend the frequency response right up to 22KHz." And: "All the specifications: • 3" High Frequency Tweeters 40Wrms (AES standard) power handling and 105dB sensitivity Frequecy response....................... 5KHz - 22KHz Built-in Crossover.............. 4u7/63V 6dB/Octave PowerRating ............................................40Wrms Chassistype .................................................... ABS Magnettype.................Ferro-Electric Transducer OverallDiameter ...........................................85mm Overalldepth................................................. 48mm Cut outdiameter........................................... 75mm Numberof mounting holes.................................. 4 Mountingslot PCD........................................85mm" Implies that an additional xover shouldn't be needed, though the casings are glued closed, so not much scope for fiddling with what's inside. So, armed with this info, wiring series or parallel, or just try one first? At xover of 5kHz, would 40W be enough handling power, I'm guessing just about? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime_BASS Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 Not knowing anything about cab building. I think I remember the original trace thing being a horizontal aligned, with the idea of stacking it ontop of a cab, the fEARful website has a build on something similar, which is IIRC a mid driver and a horn, but the build box and guidelines could be useful. I would email Alex at Barefaced to first as I'm sure there is a very deep and technical reason why the compact doesn't have a tweeted option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 [quote name='MoonBassAlpha' post='1348166' date='Aug 22 2011, 12:12 PM']Re reading the original ad: "Pair of New Trace Elliot LeSon WRT300 High Frequency Tweeters 40W RMS PA/Hi-Fi Speaker. New Old Stock - these tweeters have been stored in a sealed box for about 14 years are in mint condiditon, have never been used but have been fully tested. They were used in various Trace products including the TAPA Acoustic PA System and the Revo 8 Monitors. We chose them as they sound excellent and are extremly reliable; we used 1000s of them and never had a failure. They were made for Trace by LeSon of Brazil, famous for their magnetic phono cartridges and made to a very high standard. They have a built-in crossover at around 5KHz and have a high impedance so can just be added to any system to extend the frequency response right up to 22KHz." And: "All the specifications: • 3" High Frequency Tweeters 40Wrms (AES standard) power handling and 105dB sensitivity Frequecy response....................... 5KHz - 22KHz Built-in Crossover.............. 4u7/63V 6dB/Octave PowerRating ............................................40Wrms Chassistype .................................................... ABS Magnettype.................Ferro-Electric Transducer OverallDiameter ...........................................85mm Overalldepth................................................. 48mm Cut outdiameter........................................... 75mm Numberof mounting holes.................................. 4 Mountingslot PCD........................................85mm" Implies that an additional xover shouldn't be needed, though the casings are glued closed, so not much scope for fiddling with what's inside. So, armed with this info, wiring series or parallel, or just try one first? At xover of 5kHz, would 40W be enough handling power, I'm guessing just about?[/quote]There's no useful technical information there. Lacking that all you can doi is to use them as they are. I'd cross fire them at a 30 to 45 degree inward toe on each. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoonBassAlpha Posted August 22, 2011 Author Share Posted August 22, 2011 [quote name='Prime_BASS' post='1348198' date='Aug 22 2011, 05:56 PM']Not knowing anything about cab building. I think I remember the original trace thing being a horizontal aligned, with the idea of stacking it ontop of a cab, the fEARful website has a build on something similar, which is IIRC a mid driver and a horn, but the build box and guidelines could be useful. I would email Alex at Barefaced to first as I'm sure there is a very deep and technical reason why the compact doesn't have a tweeted option.[/quote] I did ask this a while back, and as Bill alluded, the axial response of the 15" driver (poor at mid upwards) would be iffy combined with a tweeter that has relatively good (better) axial response. There was a post in Alex's old affiliates bit, I dunno if it is still available after that bit of BC got reorganised. I very quickly hooked up the tweeter with the Compact and just sat it on top. The level matched in ok and just added a bit of presence and "air " to the sound of the fretless, sounding a bit more natural. I'll have to knock something a bit more proper together and try it at playing volume. It's nice to hear the treble control on the Genz do something, though it's not something I crave a lot of. Like seasoning your food with out ruining it! I'll keep you posted, and thanks to all for your comments! Cheers Jules Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bassman7755 Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 [quote name='MoonBassAlpha' post='1348570' date='Aug 22 2011, 11:38 PM']I very quickly hooked up the tweeter with the Compact and just sat it on top.[/quote] Why not sell it and get an midget-T - youl need to crank the bass knob on the shuttle up a notch or 2 to mach the low end of the compact but otherwise your good to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoonBassAlpha Posted August 23, 2011 Author Share Posted August 23, 2011 [quote name='bassman7755' post='1348931' date='Aug 23 2011, 12:48 PM']Why not sell it and get an midget-T - youl need to crank the bass knob on the shuttle up a notch or 2 to mach the low end of the compact but otherwise your good to go.[/quote] cost mainly - Compact ~£300 sh Midget-T £550 +delivery. Plus I enjoy knobbing around with stuff! I may still get the Midget, I've been looking forward to trying Shire's new arrival! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoonBassAlpha Posted August 27, 2011 Author Share Posted August 27, 2011 Well, I tried it out on a gig last night - I really liked the sound, and the bandmates did too! I'm not playing any slap, for which this would work really well incidentally, but the attack of the notes when you dig in is nice if you want it, and rolling the passive tone off to about 2/3rds takes it back to "normal" when the click isn't required. I love the Compact, but find (so far!) that this gives the extra dimension in tone I was looking for, and 1 seems plenty loud enough, I really cant see any need for 2 with 1 cab. Here's some pics, In typical fashion, it's not finished cosmetically, I built it at lunchtime, gigged in the evening. I'll probably knock the rough edges off sometime. It's got Velcro now to stick it to the Amp to stop it jumping around: [attachment=87995:Tweeter_1.jpg] [attachment=87996:Tweeter_2.jpg] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted August 27, 2011 Share Posted August 27, 2011 Bill -- for the total thickies among us (i.e. me), could you explain the difference between 1st order high-pass and 3rd order? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoonBassAlpha Posted August 27, 2011 Author Share Posted August 27, 2011 I'll jump in here as Bill is probably still in bed! The order of the filter is the steepness of the slope at which it cuts off at the filter frequency. The higher the order, the steeper the slope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted August 27, 2011 Share Posted August 27, 2011 [quote name='Rich' post='1353435' date='Aug 27 2011, 06:17 AM']Bill -- for the total thickies among us (i.e. me), could you explain the difference between 1st order high-pass and 3rd order?[/quote] [url="http://www.bcae1.com/xoorder.htm"]http://www.bcae1.com/xoorder.htm[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime_BASS Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 [quote name='MoonBassAlpha' post='1353429' date='Aug 27 2011, 11:09 AM']Well, I tried it out on a gig last night - I really liked the sound, and the bandmates did too! I'm not playing any slap, for which this would work really well incidentally, but the attack of the notes when you dig in is nice if you want it, and rolling the passive tone off to about 2/3rds takes it back to "normal" when the click isn't required. I love the Compact, but find (so far!) that this gives the extra dimension in tone I was looking for, and 1 seems plenty loud enough, I really cant see any need for 2 with 1 cab. Here's some pics, In typical fashion, it's not finished cosmetically, I built it at lunchtime, gigged in the evening. I'll probably knock the rough edges off sometime. It's got Velcro now to stick it to the Amp to stop it jumping around: [attachment=87995:Tweeter_1.jpg] [attachment=87996:Tweeter_2.jpg][/quote] I'd love to hear this. I only have the tweeter on the super12 on lightly to like you said add "air" even in a mix it makes a big difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdwardHimself Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 Old school phone lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoonBassAlpha Posted August 29, 2011 Author Share Posted August 29, 2011 [quote name='EdwardHimself' post='1355393' date='Aug 29 2011, 04:47 PM']Old school phone lol[/quote] Yeah, it's relic'd and got mojo. It's there to give you an idea of the size in case YOU thought 3" was bigger than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdwardHimself Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 [quote name='MoonBassAlpha' post='1355721' date='Aug 29 2011, 09:32 PM']Yeah, it's relic'd and got mojo. It's there to give you an idea of the size in case YOU thought 3" was bigger than that.[/quote] Oh don't worry, if I needed to know how big 3" was, I've got a ruler on the table next to me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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