Technofret AdvancedFretLevelling tool

[essexbasscat]

I'm no expert at this topic, just an interested learner. But would I be correct in thinking that a trussrod applies force from a central position (perhaps with the exceptions of rikkys and other dual trussrod instruments), while stings apply force across the fretboard ? And the old favourite - different thickness strings, tuned to different pitches, apply different levels of force.

Just a few thoughts.....

[Kiwi]

[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1319363789' post='1412992']
The neck just sees tension it doesn't see strings and go "oh here I'm strung I must bend like this" Or "oh I have a machine simulating strings so I must bend like that"
[/quote]
Think of a neck as a piece of foam.

Imagine that you have the piece of foam thinner at one end than it is at the other. Like a bass guitar neck.

Imagine that the foam is denser at one end than the other (ie more bubbles vs less bubbles) Like a bass guitar neck with a truss rod.

Now imagine whether it bends consistently or not. A bass neck bends MORE around the 7th fret and less around the 15th-19th fret.

Plek doesn't imagine that at all. It assumes the neck is a consistent width and density, without a truss rod.

If the Plek system was to work properly, it would take a measurement of the neck under tension, then a measurement of the neck not under tension, then bend the neck to original tension without strings so it could be machine levelled flat. The algorithm it uses to calculate bend is based on a over simplified engineering formula and not on what actually happens to bass necks under tension.

Edited October 23, 2011 by Kiwi
extra clarification

[Kiwi]

[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1319365530' post='1413032']
Looking at the vid. It puts tension on the neck to mimic strings and then dresses the frets.
[/quote]
It says it mimics strings but it doesn't.

It measures the neck under tension

It measures the neck under no tension.

It computes the difference between the two measurements and ASSUMES A [b]CONCAVE[/b] CURVE.

That curve is based on a mathematical facsmile of wood. The facsmile assumes a consistent structural deformation. Wood and a truss rod in a real neck doesn't deform in a structurally consistent way. Its an S bend more or less.

Please let me know if I'm not making it simple enough.

[ikay]

I had my Jazz plecked at Chandlers. Massive disappointment. Took it back and had it redone the good old fashioned way. Perfect

[Kiwi]

[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1319367532' post='1413080']
It's putting the force of the strings into the neck whilst it's in the plek machine. So how is that a facsimile??
[/quote]
Its computing the difference of two measurements and presuming different conditions.

You're an engineer, you should be familiar with the principle of ground truthing.

The plek machine assumes a consistent concave curve. A convenient mathematical principle.

The neck is typically is an S curve. An inconvenient reality

[Kiwi]

BTW I've played Lakland basses in shops and the action is what I'd call 'medium', I don't know where the claims about precision come from. The lowest action I've ever played consistently has been on Status Series 2000 basses. Yes the graphite construction helped a lot but it set the standard for other instruments

[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1319368483' post='1413106']


My reading of it is it puts tension on the neck. Then measures the neck then the operator selects the profile and away it goes.

[/quote]
The profiles are wrong, based on an over simplification of bending characteristics.


[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1319368483' post='1413106']
You seem to be saying they have too measurements from a non descript piece of wood
[/quote]
The wood is irrelevant to why the plek machine doesn't work very well.

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='murrmac123' timestamp='1319358595' post='1412925']

Absoutely correct, that is precisely what is supposed to happen after leveling.

Remember, you already [b]tightened [/b]the truss rod prior to leveling, in order to make the neck straight.

After leveling, you then [b]slacken [/b]it off a tad, and that is what gives you the required relief.
[/quote]
No, you're supposed to get a flat board with no string tension. When you flatten a board with string tension you get backbow in the neck. If you do this with heavy strings and then switch to lighter tension you don't have enough truss rod to back off any more, also you loose the range of the truss rod to deal with humidity changes. Backbow kills necks, front bow is easily fixed by truss rods.

Overtightening the truss rod previous to this will only mean you level your board to a state of greater stress than it will be used in causing dips in the spots where compressed rods cause humps and where neck thickness changes drastically. Truss rods don't run the whole length of the neck and their force is not even on the neck at least compared to a set of strings.

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='henry norton' timestamp='1319360754' post='1412953']I suppose that's where Chandlers made a mistake, being led to believe customers would prefer a machine to set their guitar up rather than a trained technician.
[/quote]I did find it funny how many people who are against CNC for woodwork were so sold by PLEK for fretwork, which I consider more critical than woodwork in the way a bass plays.

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='essexbasscat' timestamp='1319364988' post='1413018']
I'm no expert at this topic, just an interested learner. But would I be correct in thinking that a trussrod applies force from a central position (perhaps with the exceptions of rikkys and other dual trussrod instruments), while stings apply force across the fretboard ? And the old favourite - different thickness strings, tuned to different pitches, apply different levels of force.

Just a few thoughts.....
[/quote]
A truss rod applies different force at different points along its length. No force beyond it's anchors which is in the playing area and it actually presses sideways against the wood of the neck whereas string tension only pulls from the end points.

[Kiwi]

[quote name='Vibrating G String' timestamp='1319427246' post='1413947']
No, you're supposed to get a flat board with no string tension. [/quote]
Not quite true, you're supposed to get frets presenting a level surface to the underside of the strings WHILE the neck under tension. If a player wishes more or or less relief they can set the height at the 12th fret with a truss rod but it really shouldn't really be necessary if the fret job is done well. The neck relief should just be set once for a particular gauge of strings and left. Action is set using the bridge saddles as normal to taste.

[quote name='Vibrating G String' timestamp='1319427246' post='1413947']
When you flatten a board with string tension you get backbow in the neck. [/quote]
Only if you tighten too much.


[quote name='Vibrating G String' timestamp='1319427246' post='141394]
If you do this with heavy strings and then switch to lighter tension you don't have enough truss rod to back off any more, also you loose the range of the truss rod to deal with humidity changes. Backbow kills necks, front bow is easily fixed by truss rods.[/quote]
It's worth highlighting that its unlikely a player will ever tighten the neck on their instruments to such extremes.

Also, many modern basses have dual action truss rods which means they will deal with tension in either direction. Stick two of them in a neck and you have not only the ability to deal with twist but the ability to set the amount of resistance to string tension on each side of the neck.

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='Kiwi' timestamp='1319437969' post='1413963']
Not quite true, you're supposed to get frets presenting a level surface to the underside of the strings WHILE the neck under tension. If a player wishes more or or less relief they can set the height at the 12th fret with a truss rod but it really shouldn't really be necessary if the fret job is done well. The neck relief should just be set once for a particular gauge of strings and left. Action is set using the bridge saddles as normal to taste.[/quote]I've never seen any pro want a flat board with string under tension, I've never done it that way myself but then I've only been doing fret jobs since 1985[quote]

Only if you tighten too much.[/quote]Which is what you're doing when you tighten it to get a flat neck under string tension.[quote]

It's worth highlighting that its unlikely a player will ever tighten the neck on their instruments to such extremes. [/quote]Which is why you don't want to do it when you're leveling frets.[quote]

Also, many modern basses have dual action truss rods which means they will deal with tension in either direction. Stick two of them in a neck and you have not only the ability to deal with twist but the ability to set the amount of resistance to string tension on each side of the neck.
[/quote]
So is this tool not for Fenders or their copies then?

[Kiwi]

[quote name='Vibrating G String' timestamp='1319438587' post='1413966']
I've never seen any pro want a flat board with string under tension, I've never done it that way myself but then I've only been doing fret jobs since 1985

[/quote]
Well maybe it's possible there might be a different and better way of doing things. I do my own set ups too. The stiffer the neck, the easier it is to get good results with the strings off. I'd prefer not to be dragged into taking a polarised debate on the matter to be honest.


[quote name='Vibrating G String' timestamp='1319438587' post='1413966']
Which is what you're doing when you tighten it to get a flat neck under string tension.Which is why you don't want to do it when you're leveling frets.
[/quote]
Well I disagree and my way works really well for getting low action, do you have a problem with that?

[murrmac123]

The crux of the matter is this :

Let's assume you have an instrument with a perfectly straight neck, there are no strings attached, and the trussrod is fully loosened off. Let us further assume that the fretboard is perfectly fretted with perfect frets, meaning that all the frets are exactly the same distance above the fretboard at every single point, while the neck is in this relaxed condition.

Now you attach the strings, and bring them up to pitch. The neck now has a huge forward bow, right? So you tighten the trussrod (slacken the strings first if you feel you need to and bring them up to pitch afterwards) until the forward bow is gone.

The tops of the frets are no longer in a straight line, and they are not in a continuous concave curve either.

The tops of the frets are now following an S - curve , as is the top of the fretboard. You [b]cannot [/b]make the fretboard straight by tightening the trussrod.

This might not matter if you are happy with a high action, but if you want the lowest possible buzz free action, it certainly does.

[essexbasscat]

It's interesting that decade upon decade of musical instrument construction has yet to provide an agreed knowledge base about the mechanics of a guitar neck and the best methods of working with it.

Entertaining though....

[steve-soar]

[quote name='essexbasscat' timestamp='1319478455' post='1414691']
It's interesting that decade upon decade of musical instrument construction has yet to provide an agreed knowledge base about the mechanics of a guitar neck and the best methods of working with it.

Entertaining though....
[/quote]
That is where luthiers fill the gap. If you've done hundrededs of fretstones/dresses by hand, you get a knowledge for them.

Edited October 24, 2011 by steve-soar

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='Kiwi' timestamp='1319440131' post='1413974']
Well maybe it's possible there might be a different and better way of doing things. I do my own set ups too. The stiffer the neck, the easier it is to get good results with the strings off. I'd prefer not to be dragged into taking a polarised debate on the matter to be honest.
[/quote]I'm not talking about doing my own setups but making many instruments from scratch and being one of the L.A. guys to get a refret done from. You're not being dragged into a debate you're starting one. You can leave at any time

[quote]
Well I disagree and my way works really well for getting low action, do you have a problem with that?
[/quote]Not to the degree you do

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='murrmac123' timestamp='1319453479' post='1414144']
The crux of the matter is this :

Let's assume you have an instrument with a perfectly straight neck, there are no strings attached, and the trussrod is fully loosened off. Let us further assume that the fretboard is perfectly fretted with perfect frets, meaning that all the frets are exactly the same distance above the fretboard at every single point, while the neck is in this relaxed condition.

Now you attach the strings, and bring them up to pitch. The neck now has a huge forward bow, right? So you tighten the trussrod (slacken the strings first if you feel you need to and bring them up to pitch afterwards) until the forward bow is gone.[/quote]Why, no one wants a flat neck with strings on if they play with low action.
[quote]
The tops of the frets are no longer in a straight line, and they are not in a continuous concave curve either.

The tops of the frets are now following an S - curve , as is the top of the fretboard. You [b]cannot [/b]make the fretboard straight by tightening the trussrod.[/quote]You want an S curve, ask any real luthier who does good fretwork. You want concave but transitioning to a drop off on the higher frets. Strings vibrate in a curve they don't translate in a straight line. This curve will be in different places depending on which note is fretted. This is explained in many basic books, you might start with Melvin Hiscocks or something by Dane Erlewine to learn more about the proper S curve of a fretboard.
[quote]
This might not matter if you are happy with a high action, but if you want the lowest possible buzz free action, it certainly does.
[/quote]Tobias, Sadowsky, Fodera disagree. Flat necks are amateur and buzz like hell. Heck you can read about this on the Modulus site where they talk about built in curvature. But they sell basses and not sticks

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='essexbasscat' timestamp='1319478455' post='1414691']
It's interesting that decade upon decade of musical instrument construction has yet to provide an agreed knowledge base about the mechanics of a guitar neck and the best methods of working with it.

Entertaining though....
[/quote]
It's agreed upon in the top end.

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='steve-soar' timestamp='1319485163' post='1414827']
That is where luthiers fill the gap. If you've done hundrededs of fretstones/dresses by hand, you get a knowledge for them.
[/quote]
I used to buy fretwire by the pound from StewMac and LMII and made many many orders. I've done refrets on vintage classics and boutique jobs. It's probably in the hundreds by now. If my eyes didn't fade with age I might still be doing them. I did high end work were I'd round the end of each fret individually and not just round over the side of the neck like most hacks do. It was quite common for people to ask me to raise the action after a setup. I've got a bit of a clue in this area.

[murrmac123]

Vibrating G string, you sure are an interesting guy. My first impression, that you were a disturbed , ill mannered youth,
has now been tempered by your revelation that you are entering your declining years. Your internet style is kinda
reminiscent of a bag-lady standing in the middle of the road shouting at the traffic, but hey, we we are all individuals,
so you are forgiven ...

The key thing here is that you have got hold of the wrong end of the stick and you won't let it go.
You have become fixated with the misapprehension that I am advocating that players should play with a flat fretboard
with no relief.

With the utmost respect (respect which is due to one of your advanced years) I have said nothing of the sort, neither
on this thread nor on the Ebay listing which started off this thread.

How much relief is dialled into the set up is the choice of the player, some players like .012" relief (hey, maybe some
like even more) others like it down to .006" or less , and believe it or not, there are in fact many Telecaster players who like no relief whatsoever in their necks, they want the fretboard dead straight. I am amazed that you haven't encountered this, you being based in LA, and having done hundreds of set -ups ...

The "S-Curve "thing is something else which is causing confusion.

You appear to be equating the S- curve ( which is automatically produced in a slender column which is compressed at
both ends and simultaneously subjected to a counteractive force ) with the configuration which is necessary for a
guitar to play optimally.

Nobody ( at least not me) is claiming that a fretboard should be dead straight along its full length in playing conditions.

There should be a gentle concave curve between the first and (on a bass ) the 17th fret (on a six string that would be
the 15th fret) and how much relief there should be is totally up to the player. The frets after the 17th should be sanded
with a fall-away to minimize the chances of fret buzz. This configuration is very far removed from an "S curve".
The bottom line is that this configuration should be totally under the control of the tech, and should not be at the
mercy of the whims of a pIece of wood ( and you know as well as I do that every neck is different) .

When you level the frets with the fret board straight under string tension, you have 100% total control of the
configuration, simply by loosening off the trussrod.

If you level the frets with the strings off , with no string tension, and then rely on the string tension to pull the neck into
relief ( which will be excessive and has to be countered by tightening the rod ), you are embarking on a crap-shoot,
which will probably work out OK most of the time, but which will most certainly not work 100% of the time.

OK that's the technical bit out of the way.

You threw in some heavyweight names there, Sadowsky, Erlewine and others.

It might interest you to read the following quote from Roger Sadowsky, which he posted to the Stewmac website

[b][font=comic sans ms, cursive]"I have been leveling fingerboards and frets for 30 years and thought I was pretty set in my ways. However, I have[/font][/b]
[b][font=comic sans ms, cursive]recently tried the 16" steel levelers (#4578) and man, talk about teaching an old dog new tricks! My fingerboards have[/font][/b]
[b][font=comic sans ms, cursive]never been better, and they work much better than files for leveling frets.Thank you again, StewMac!!!"[/font][/b]

Now, let me say that I have been leveling fretboards for almost thirty years and have never used anything other than
19" long precision ground sanding beams (yes, the same ones as I sell on Ebay) .

However, I am a good friend of oneof the top luthiers in your home state, and for fret leveling he uses the same 10" file that he has used for God knowshow long. So , different strokes for different folks. However, I live in hopes that he may yet experience the same
epiphany that Roger Sadowsky underwent ...

But the salient point is Roger's quote [b][font=comic sans ms, cursive]" ...talk about teaching an old dog new tricks!"[/font][/b] .... GEDDIT ?

You also mentioned Dan ( it's Dan, not Dane btw) Erlewine.

Let me quote you chapter and verse from Dan's renowned volume "Guitar Player Repair Guide " (Revised volume)
from page 188 :

[font=comic sans ms, cursive][b]"I wanted something which would duplicate the pressure of a fully strung guitar, so that as I worked on a neck, it would be under the same stress - and in the same configuration_- as when it was being played. "[/b][/font]

Dan is of course referring here to the neck jig which he helped to develop (it was originally designed back in the day by Don Teeter, who doesn't get the credit he deserves)

Personally, I have issues with the Stewmac Jig, this isn't the time or place to discuss them, but, hey, you were the one who brought up Dan (not Dane btw) Erlewine, so there you go ...

Finally, in the name dropping scenario (which you instigated btw, not me) I would like to bring to your attention the estimable Rick Turner. I am assuming you are familiar with the name, he operates in California, and he carries more clout than you , me and all the other names mentioned so far put together. If you are at all familiar with the Californian scene, you will know that Rick is THE MAN .
And guess what ?

Rick Turner levels his fretboards in exactly the same way as I do. Don't believe me ? Just Google "Rick Turner fret leveling"

Can I make one request, Vibrating G string?

WIll you please read through the posts which I have made , and possibly even read the Ebay listing , before replying, and then make a measured response, rather than posting a knee-jerk reaction ?

With all best wishes ...

[foal30]

quite a bit of lol here.

[steve-bbb]

***pokes with sharp stick***

[foal30]

waiting!

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='murrmac123' timestamp='1319570778' post='1416009']
Vibrating G string, you sure are an interesting guy. My first impression, that you were a disturbed , ill mannered youth,
has now been tempered by your revelation that you are entering your declining years. Your internet style is kinda
reminiscent of a bag-lady standing in the middle of the road shouting at the traffic, but hey, we we are all individuals,
so you are forgiven ...
[/quote]Wow, thanks for the absolution! And also for proving that you're not worth discussing things with as your favored response is name calling. Good luck selling your stick, I'm sure you'll find plenty of people who like the story and will be impressed with it. As a long time NAMM member I can tell you the music industry is fertile ground for snake oil salesman and you should do well.

[bremen]

I'm going to buy one just because Murmac is eloquent and witty and it's one way of buying him a pint.
I'd like to buy something from Vibrating, too, for being such a reliable Mr Angry (I'm a big Mark E Smith fan btw). What is it you sell?