So... The RH450 is actually a 236w head???

[stevie]

[quote name='dave.c' post='1361008' date='Sep 3 2011, 03:13 PM']How many people would also have dismissed it as too expensive at £600 or so for a 250 watt head? no matter how good they are.[/quote]
In that case, TC had two options: reduce the price or increase the power output. That would have reduced their profit margin, of course. which ultimately is what this is all about. If they had not been so greedy (it has to be said!), they could have called it a 300W amp and nobody would have thought any more about it.
On the other hand, TC has spent a small fortune on the tooling for the case (as far as I can see) and the build quality and feature set are outstanding. Which is why I had no qualms about paying a premium for mine.

[JTUK]

I'm fine with this witch-hunt or excessive desire for clarification or whatever....I just hope this courtesy extends to others on here.

I'll watch with interest

[machinehead]

[quote name='JTUK' post='1361247' date='Sep 3 2011, 07:54 PM']I'm fine with this witch-hunt or excessive desire for clarification or whatever....I just hope this courtesy extends to others on here.

I'll watch with interest [/quote]

Interesting...what company are you referring to? I find all this talk of watts fascinating.

Frank.

[Owen]

I am trawling through micro heads at the moment and have been thinking about the whole TC thing. Actual proper RMS measurements aside, I have been playing through a rig that has full-on speaker control/management (multiband compression and EQ for flatness) for 3 or 4 years now and have never been happier. All the big PA systems feature speaker controllers which optimise their rigs. The best sound I EVER got was through a d&b audio rig. I had more headroom than I ever thought possible. It was just a delight to play proper dynamics on my Double Bass and hear them be realised through the PA. You can bet your bottom dollar there was a lot of DSP doing it's funky thing there. I have never been anywhere near any TC bass kit and am not commenting one way or the other, just thinking aloud that it seems that TC are the first to bring DSP to the mainstream for us. The whole watts thing is........... ummm........... unfortunate, but the DSP thing is a welcome new flavour.

[Musicman20]

I have heard the RH450 with a DB and it sounded fantastic.

[JTUK]

[quote name='owen' post='1365943' date='Sep 7 2011, 11:53 PM']I am trawling through micro heads at the moment and have been thinking about the whole TC thing. Actual proper RMS measurements aside, I have been playing through a rig that has full-on speaker control/management (multiband compression and EQ for flatness) for 3 or 4 years now and have never been happier. All the big PA systems feature speaker controllers which optimise their rigs. The best sound I EVER got was through a d&b audio rig. I had more headroom than I ever thought possible. It was just a delight to play proper dynamics on my Double Bass and hear them be realised through the PA. You can bet your bottom dollar there was a lot of DSP doing it's funky thing there. I have never been anywhere near any TC bass kit and am not commenting one way or the other, just thinking aloud that it seems that TC are the first to bring DSP to the mainstream for us. The whole watts thing is........... ummm........... unfortunate, but the DSP thing is a welcome new flavour.[/quote]

agree, certainly about the mapping and controller. Some of these higher end cabs don't work half as well without the controller element which is why I reserve my thoughts about TC cabs run on their own. What isn't in doubt though, IMO, is that the TC setup cabs and amp can sound very impressive and as long as that had enough watts on stage, that would be fine with me. There has always been this watts and watts thing anyway so as long as it fits the individuals bill, then ok.

As for the PR thing... should have thought things through and that is unfortunate.

[Mr. Foxen]

What power ratings came up for comparable micro heads?

[chris_b]

TC would be pretty silly to market their 230 watt amps as 230 watt amps, as the engineering techniques they can now use have clearly put these amps way beyond the 230 watt category. Sadly, as too many people on Talkbass and here have proved, numbers on paper seem to matter more than the sound coming out of their cabs!

TC has been faced with a problem, market these amps in the traditional way and loose sales, because 230 watt amps are not as popular, or pitch the amps against the 450 watt competition. Clearly their decision was correct because their amps were beating their competitors in the real world. All this "bashing" and "outrage" has really only been about semantics. Most published cab specs are calmly dismissed as fiction so in my view the anti TC lot just look like an irrational lynch mob.

Apparently Genz Benz has also been “creative” with some of their watts so as technology has moved on it’s clear we should all be basing our amp purchasing on perceived volume not spec sheet watts.


PS I'm still looking for a used RH750.

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='chris_b' post='1366395' date='Sep 8 2011, 01:53 PM']Sadly, as too many people on Talkbass and here have proved, numbers on paper seem to matter more than the sound coming out of their cabs![/quote]

I dont think that's the case here on BC (at least). Hardly anyone has actually said the head isnt up to the job or loud enough, the discussion is about the marketing IMO.

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='chris_b' post='1366395' date='Sep 8 2011, 01:53 PM']TC would be pretty silly to market their 230 watt amps as 230 watt amps, as the engineering techniques they can now use have clearly put these amps way beyond the 230 watt category. Sadly, as too many people on Talkbass and here have proved, numbers on paper seem to matter more than the sound coming out of their cabs!

TC has been faced with a problem, market these amps in the traditional way and loose sales, because 230 watt amps are not as popular, or pitch the amps against the 450 watt competition. Clearly their decision was correct because their amps were beating their competitors in the real world. All this "bashing" and "outrage" has really only been about semantics. Most published cab specs are calmly dismissed as fiction so in my view the anti TC lot just look like an irrational lynch mob.

Apparently Genz Benz has also been “creative” with some of their watts so as technology has moved on it’s clear we should all be basing our amp purchasing on perceived volume not spec sheet watts.


PS I'm still looking for a used RH750.[/quote]

I'm still of the opinion that it didn't perform like I'd expect a 450 watt head to.

[chris_b]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='1366412' date='Sep 8 2011, 02:05 PM']....I'm still of the opinion that it didn't perform like I'd expect a 450 watt head to....[/quote]
I accept that the TC wasn't the amp for you. And that we're less "outraged" than they are in the US.


My point is that TC knew they were in the "Nigel Tufnel" situation with many of their potential customers:

"230 watts is quieter than 450 watts."

"No it isn't, it's louder!"

"Not in my lifetime, sunshine!"



It seems to me that watts are changing and as long as we can understand and are happy with what is coming out at the business end what's going in at the other is becoming less important.

[dave_bass5]

Ive probably missed it by im wondering why didnt TC actually make it a 450 "real" watts head, meaning it will be way louder than any other 450watt head on the market?
Was it so they didnt loose sales of the 750 i wonder?

[tauzero]

[quote name='Musky' post='1354478' date='Aug 28 2011, 04:40 PM']As far as I can see though, with a few exceptions like Behringer, amp manufacturesfigures seem to bear at least some relation to reality.[/quote]
The power ratings for Behringer's EP2500 are considerably more accurate than those for the RH450 (ie. they're almost exactly correct).

TC were foolish - they could have called the thing the RH450 and given its RMS power rating elsewhere. I think there has been a hysterical overreaction on TB by some members, saying that they will now sell their RH450s and 750s even though they love them because TC used misleading figures.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='dave_bass5' post='1366499' date='Sep 8 2011, 03:13 PM']Ive probably missed it by im wondering why didnt TC actually make it a 450 "real" watts head, meaning it will be way louder than any other 450watt head on the market?
Was it so they didnt loose sales of the 750 i wonder?[/quote]

Because it would have increased the cost of the amp for no benefit to everyone whos happy at its current power level.

[fragglefart]

[quote name='tauzero' post='1366657' date='Sep 8 2011, 04:55 PM']TC were foolish - they could have called the thing the RH450 and given its RMS power rating elsewhere. I think there has been a hysterical overreaction on TB by some members, saying that they will now sell their RH450s and 750s even though they love them because TC used misleading figures.[/quote]

I think TC have been a touch underhand but I'll shamelessly take advantage of anyone who wants shot pronto - I still think the amps look (and more imprtant sound) amazing with a sweet feature set to boot.

[Musky]

[quote name='tauzero' post='1366657' date='Sep 8 2011, 04:55 PM']The power ratings for Behringer's EP2500 are considerably more accurate than those for the RH450 (ie. they're almost exactly correct).

TC were foolish - they could have called the thing the RH450 and given its RMS power rating elsewhere. I think there has been a hysterical overreaction on TB by some members, saying that they will now sell their RH450s and 750s even though they love them because TC used misleading figures.[/quote]
I can well believe it, although I was thinking more of the claimed 3600w of The Nuke bass head.

Weirdly, this thread has served to move the RH450 into my personal 'Interested' category. I've never really subscribed to the idea that you need 300w+ for a gigging bass amp, and all this talk of compression at volume and valve-like characteristics sounds like just the sort of thing I'd get on with.

Maybe I should get over to TB to pickup one of these heads that people are threatening to unload.

[charic]

[quote name='Musky' post='1367170' date='Sep 8 2011, 11:46 PM']I can well believe it, although I was thinking more of the claimed 3600w of The Nuke bass head.

Weirdly, this thread has served to move the RH450 into my personal 'Interested' category. I've never really subscribed to the idea that you need 300w+ for a gigging bass amp, and all this talk of compression at volume and valve-like characteristics sounds like just the sort of thing I'd get on with.

Maybe I should get over to TB to pickup one of these heads that people are threatening to unload. [/quote]

What's the saying, any advertisement is good advertisement

[stevie]

[quote name='chris_b' post='1366395' date='Sep 8 2011, 01:53 PM']Most published cab specs are calmly dismissed as fiction so in my view the anti TC lot just look like an irrational lynch mob.[/quote]
That's an interesting comparison, because bass guitar cab specs are indeed almost entirely a work of fiction. Unfortunately, most punters believe them - and that's the problem. If this furore has the affect of persuading manufacturers to describe their products more honestly, some good will have come out of it. I'm not holding my breath though.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='stevie' post='1367365' date='Sep 9 2011, 10:12 AM']That's an interesting comparison, because bass guitar cab specs are indeed almost entirely a work of fiction. Unfortunately, most punters believe them - and that's the problem. If this furore has the affect of persuading manufacturers to describe their products more honestly, some good will have come out of it. I'm not holding my breath though.[/quote]

As has been discussed it would amusing if it went the way the boutique hifi where manufactures use low headline power ratings to get attention and qdos - how long before a boutique bass head comes out rated at 25w or somthing

[Musky]

[quote name='bassman7755' post='1367688' date='Sep 9 2011, 02:26 PM']As has been discussed it would amusing if it went the way the boutique hifi where manufactures use low headline power ratings to get attention and qdos - how long before a boutique bass head comes out rated at 25w or somthing [/quote]
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