Funny Innit ..

[uncle psychosis]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1357592' date='Aug 31 2011, 02:48 PM']I've always found the problem with guitar to learn theory is it is too easy to rely on movable fingering patterns and
chord shapes without knowing anything about what you are playing other than the shape,which is why many guitar
and bass players don't know things like chord tones and scales-they can play the pattern,but they don't know what
they are playing.You can't do this on a keyboard.[/quote]

+1

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1358009' date='Aug 31 2011, 08:23 PM']My only criticism on your position, Nigel, is that there are many impressionable people out there who look to established folk for advice on what is the besty to get better. My position is to advocate the btroadest possible learning experiences and the widest possible range of tools. That way, a developing player can get good and keep getting good as they find themselves.

If i use myself as an example, I started on ELO then Iron Maiden/NWOBHM, Rock, Prog, fusion, Jazz. If I had stuck with the 'stuff I needed' at stage one of that journey, I may have been denied the opportunity to move onto the other stages and shot myself in the foot in terms of the real journey I was on as opposed to the one I thought I was on a 17. Of course people can 'get away with' limited learning (there are millionaires with [i]that[/i] CV) but I always advocate for the widest learning possible to ensure that the individual's potential is given the best possible chance. Its easy to think you are good when you are the best player in Aberystwyth, for example. Its what you are like when you leave that will count. The thing I hear most from older players (espacially the ones that give up) is 'I wish I had......'. All I say is 'do the work and it will pay you back'. Advocating for the shortest distance between two points is irresposnible, IMO.

But then again, I may be a total arse.....[/quote]
To be blunt and somewhat unsympathetic, IMO impressionable people rarely make good musicians let alone great ones, so should we be worried about what we say to them. I've found that the musicians and songwriters I like and find interesting are the ones who have gone their own way and not listened to others. Good musicians are all about expressions of self and individuality. If you are an impressionable person and you want to be good at something creative then you need to stop being impressionable and believe in yourself.

That means that read through all these threads and [b]MAKE UP YOUR OWN MIND[/b] which musical skills are worth your time pursuing which can be set aside for the moment. For me songwriting is a far more useful skill than being able to read. I have a whole catalogue of recorded works that I can proudly say "I wrote that" plus via PRS royalties I'm still making money from songs I wrote and recorded over 30 years ago long after the bands that performed them have split.

Sorry for pulling this thread off its original topic when I said I wouldn't.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='silddx' post='1356833' date='Aug 30 2011, 08:52 PM']Over the past couple of months, I have hardly played bass at home, but I play guitar every day. And when I go to rehearsals as a bassist and play songs we know, and work on new songs, I am a much better bassist. I am more fluid, more imaginative, more dynamic, more expressive and more comfortable. I am also playing more with a pick and right hand damping more. Along with the volume pedal which has become a large part of my natural style, I am really feeling it now, not just mechanical.

I am a much better player through not playing at home. Not that I am advocating this approach you understand.

I am finally happy not being a reader, I got fed up of feeling guilty about it and shed that stupid burden.

I am a happy bassist (for a f***ing change ).[/quote]

As with many activities the real learning and improvement occurs during the down time rather than during the activity itself, in the same way that muscles dont grow when your actually at the gym.

As for reading, if you dont have a specific use for it then down worry about it. Theres an awful lot you can learn about musical structure and thoery without learning to read, and alot of ear development you can do. Having said that I sometimes use a bit of notation to write down lines for new songs I'm learning but I cant read it in anything like real time, its more a case of the visual contour of the notes will jog my memory when I'm at a rehearsal.

[Gust0o]

I get the point about the usefulness of a good knowledge of theory; though I can't help but hark back to the chap who posted recently, complaining that he couldn't translate his established knowledge into what he wanted to hear from his instrument.

There's a balance, and it sounds as if it's a balance based upon personal needs; with some pragmatic advice which suggests that you should look to continue learning throughout your bass playing career, in whatever capacity and at whatever rate you might feel appropriate to yourself.

We've not often reached that balance, as we are often to be found bogged in our favourite rut - where personal needs are disregard for some blanket 'best practice' of learning the theory as a "must" not a "should", with a nice shade of disdain to proceedings. It puts backs up and the polarity of the issue isn't helped by the differences in ourselves as players and musicians - that advice can often seem like a lecture from on high, somehow reinforcing failings in my own ability.

I can read; though I lack the proficiency to be able to handle a reading gig any time soon, and a lot of the finesse is missing. I think I'd just like to keep going at my own pace.

[Bilbo]

Fortunately, we don't have to choose between 'formal' learning and the more intuitive stuff. You can, and probably should, do both.

[Skol303]

Here I go, blundering into this discussion and likely to put my big, sweaty foot in something...

Surely, regardless of personal situations, it's better to know how to read music than not, if you're a musician.

That doesn't mean you HAVE to read music. If you're having a happier time not worrying about it, then that surely speaks for itself. But if we could take a magic pill and suddenly be fluent at sight reading then we would, no?

If you're not enjoying learning to read notation; if you find it to be a chore that's taking away the fun and enjoyment from music, then stop. It's simple. But don't try justifying your decision by trying to persuade yourself (and others) that you're giving up because it's unnecessary, as that just comes across as sour grapes.

If you're going to give up on something, do so in earnest, not begrudgingly. Otherwise the pangs of regret will only come back and bite you in time...

Here endeth the sermon ;-)

[PS: magical pills for learning notation are available from Skol Industries at the usual address... at least I think that's what these pills are for; I haven't been able to sit down for weeks!!]

[xilddx]

[quote name='Skol303' post='1358541' date='Sep 1 2011, 10:38 AM']Here I go, blundering into this discussion and likely to put my big, sweaty foot in something...

Surely, regardless of personal situations, it's better to know how to read music than not, if you're a musician.

That doesn't mean you HAVE to read music. If you're having a happier time not worrying about it, then that surely speaks for itself. [b]But if we could take a magic pill and suddenly be fluent at sight reading then we would, no? [/b]

If you're not enjoying learning to read notation; if you find it to be a chore that's taking away the fun and enjoyment from music, then stop. It's simple. But don't try justifying your decision by trying to persuade yourself (and others) that you're giving up because it's unnecessary, as that just comes across as sour grapes.

If you're going to give up on something, do so in earnest, not begrudgingly. Otherwise the pangs of regret will only come back and bite you in time...

Here endeth the sermon ;-)

[PS: magical pills for learning notation are available from Skol Industries at the usual address... at least I think that's what these pills are for; I haven't been able to sit down for weeks!!][/quote]
Think I'd rather have the sex god pill thanks.

[oldslapper]

I'm going to suggest there's a lot more to being a musician than, for instance, whether you can play, by ear, "flight of the bumble bee" fluently and accurately with great "groove", whilst hanging upside down in a vat of pims, with your bass behind your neck. Or whether you can accurately read, interpret and play Rachmaninov's 3rd piano concerto on your 6 string foderbernieshukebic.

Reading, or "just playing by ear" is only part of being musical......and I don't really even know what that means and I suspect that no one else does in full, we're all on a journey, no ones' is better than anyone else's. I get tired of people laying it on other's about what they should do, we've all been "should on" from a great height at some point or another, don't need it here thank you very much.

Very happy to post links to notable blind musicians, classical and contemporary. Or links to deaf musicians who were pretty tasty, again classical and contemporary. But I have a feeling it won't help, as won't this post.

Who you are is more important, not what you can do. If you're identity is only in what you can do, then you're royaly screwed if, for some tragic reason, you're unable to do it anymore.

[xilddx]

[quote name='oldslapper' post='1358662' date='Sep 1 2011, 12:13 PM']I'm going to suggest there's a lot more to being a musician than, for instance, whether you can play, by ear, "flight of the bumble bee" fluently and accurately with great "groove", whilst hanging upside down in a vat of pims, with your bass behind your neck. Or whether you can accurately read, interpret and play Rachmaninov's 3rd piano concerto on your 6 string foderbernieshukebic.

Reading, or "just playing by ear" is only part of being musical......and I don't really even know what that means and I suspect that no one else does in full, we're all on a journey, no ones' is better than anyone else's. I get tired of people laying it on other's about what they should do, we've all been "should on" from a great height at some point or another, don't need it here thank you very much.

Very happy to post links to notable blind musicians, classical and contemporary. Or links to deaf musicians who were pretty tasty, again classical and contemporary. But I have a feeling it won't help, as won't this post.

Who you are is more important, not what you can do. If you're identity is only in what you can do, then you're royaly screwed if, for some tragic reason, you're unable to do it anymore.[/quote]
This is my point. But I think the world we live in seems to commodotise everything, and it stifles personal expression and the gentle and troublesome road to finding one's voice. There is so much pressure to conform to stereotypes.

Personally speaking I feel I can apply my voice to numerous diverse activities and derive much pleasure from them by taking my own path. I'm no great cook, angler, artist, musician, safety adviser, web designer, etc. but take away my hearing and I could still express myself happily through the others and not be traumatised by the loss. Being a musician is not the key to my identity anymore, and I am happier for that.

[uncle psychosis]

[quote name='Skol303' post='1358541' date='Sep 1 2011, 10:38 AM']Here I go, blundering into this discussion and likely to put my big, sweaty foot in something...

Surely, regardless of personal situations, it's better to know how to read music than not, if you're a musician.

That doesn't mean you HAVE to read music. If you're having a happier time not worrying about it, then that surely speaks for itself. But if we could take a magic pill and suddenly be fluent at sight reading then we would, no?

If you're not enjoying learning to read notation; if you find it to be a chore that's taking away the fun and enjoyment from music, then stop. It's simple. But don't try justifying your decision by trying to persuade yourself (and others) that you're giving up because it's unnecessary, as that just comes across as sour grapes.

If you're going to give up on something, do so in earnest, not begrudgingly. Otherwise the pangs of regret will only come back and bite you in time...[/quote]

This post pretty sums up my opinions on reading music and learning theory. I get really annoyed at people (and its usually guitarists, but I imagine theres a lot of bass players like this too) who somehow think that learning to read music is a bad thing. That there's some kind of twisted universe out there where learning more about music makes you less of a musician. Its absolute madness!

Back to the original post, I think the musical world would be a better place if more musicians learned to play multiple instruments and, perhaps, learned to broaden their horizons beyond the scope of their own instrument and genre. If guitarists tried to emulate John Coltrane, Yehudi Menuhin, Tori Amos, Keith Moon instead of endlessly rehashing Hendrix, Van Halen, and Clapton then the rock world would be an infinitely more interesting place!

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='uncle psychosis' post='1358731' date='Sep 1 2011, 01:13 PM']This post pretty sums up my opinions on reading music and learning theory. I get really annoyed at people (and its usually guitarists, but I imagine theres a lot of bass players like this too) who somehow think that learning to read music is a bad thing. That there's some kind of twisted universe out there where learning more about music makes you less of a musician. Its absolute madness![/quote]

I think those claiming that it is actively damaging are in a very small minority and rightly so because its a complete falacy.
However there is also an "opportunity cost" involved - spending time on one thing mean detracting from another. Many players especially of the intermediate amateur playing-in-pub-cover-bands variety (of which I am one) often have flaws or weaknesses in their playing that are more urgently in need of addressing than the lack of ability to sight-read. Also thoery and reading are not the same - I've met plenty of people who can site read on various instruments but who have scant knowledge of what I consider elementary harmony such as harmonised scales and modes.

[quote name='uncle psychosis' post='1358731' date='Sep 1 2011, 01:13 PM']Back to the original post, I think the musical world would be a better place if more musicians learned to play multiple instruments and, perhaps, learned to broaden their horizons beyond the scope of their own instrument and genre.[/quote]

True, but for myself I take the view that life is simply to short to waste listening to and working out music I dont like and my taste is pretty narrow to the point where listening to Hendrix Van Halen AND Clapton would be a stretch . As for the other artists you list, thanks but no thanks, none of them do anything for me and I'm not going to squander my precious time on this earth forcing myself to listen to them. I know that as a bass player I "should" be listening to Jaco as well as Geddy Lee but ... nope, leaves me cold. Simply put, listening to stuff I dont actively like (i.e. about 95% of all music) is too high a price to pay for makign me a more "original" player.

Edited September 1, 2011 by bassman7755

[Faithless]

Oh my.. It's just not funny. The thing is - you don't become better at something by [b]not [/b]doing it.
If you needed a break, and now feel fresh coming back, then that's fine, but stating that you got better is just wrong.
Not wrong for you, Sildx, but wrong for those upcoming players who read this and catch on this.

I probably wouldnt be arsed to go into this, but stuff like this reminds me of hundreds of young players catching Jaco's quote on "Being able to do it without practising" the wrong way.

If there are any upcoming players, who need info on practising and getting better [u]through [/u]working, then there is some material for you to check out:

[url="http://www.joehubbardbass.com/332/bass-guitar-practice-principles-part-1/"]http://www.joehubbardbass.com/332/bass-gui...nciples-part-1/[/url]

All questions are welcome via PM.

Easy
Laimis

[uncle psychosis]

[quote name='bassman7755' post='1358915' date='Sep 1 2011, 03:57 PM']As for the other artists you list, thanks but no thanks, none of them do anything for me and I'm not going to squander my precious time on this earth forcing myself to listen to them. I know that as a bass player I "should" be listening to Jaco as well as Geddy Lee but ... nope, leaves me cold. Simply put, listening to stuff I dont actively like (i.e. about 95% of all music) is too high a price to pay for makign me a more "original" player.[/quote]

You have completely and utterly missed my point. Nevermind.

[Gust0o]

[quote name='Faithless' post='1358934' date='Sep 1 2011, 04:12 PM']Oh my.. It's just not funny. The thing is - you don't become better at something by [b]not [/b]doing it.
If you needed a break, and now feel fresh coming back, then that's fine, but stating that you got better is just wrong.
Not wrong for you, Sildx, but wrong for those upcoming players who read this and catch on this.

I probably wouldnt be arsed to go into this, but stuff like this reminds me of hundreds of young players catching Jaco's quote on "Being able to do it without practising" the wrong way.[/quote]

I'd go back and read it all again, lah. I don't think you've got what he was saying, at all.

"Better" reads a number of ways - either just technically better, as in some improvement in skill; or better in an emotional sense. I have no doubt Nige has come back in the latter space.

He knows his limits; he knows what he wants; he's able to compartmentalise that from some of the guff and judgement on here; and yes, I absolutely believe he's better for it

Edited September 1, 2011 by Gust0o

[xilddx]

[quote name='Faithless' post='1358934' date='Sep 1 2011, 04:12 PM']Oh my.. It's just not funny. The thing is - you don't become better at something by [b]not [/b]doing it.
If you needed a break, and now feel fresh coming back, then that's fine, but stating that you got better is just wrong.
Not wrong for you, Sildx, but wrong for those upcoming players who read this and catch on this.

I probably wouldnt be arsed to go into this, but stuff like this reminds me of hundreds of young players catching Jaco's quote on "Being able to do it without practising" the wrong way.

If there are any upcoming players, who need info on practising and getting better [u]through [/u]working, then there is some material for you to check out:

[url="http://www.joehubbardbass.com/332/bass-guitar-practice-principles-part-1/"]http://www.joehubbardbass.com/332/bass-gui...nciples-part-1/[/url]

All questions are welcome via PM.

Easy
Laimis[/quote]

Laimis. A quick question.

If I was an up and coming bassist and I said to you, "I love pop and rock music, and I want to play the bass guitar in a rock band, but I don't know where to start, what do I do?" What would you say to me?

[Doddy]

[quote name='silddx' post='1359020' date='Sep 1 2011, 05:23 PM']Laimis. A quick question.

If I was an up and coming bassist and I said to you, "I love pop and rock music, and I want to play the bass guitar in a rock band, but I don't know where to start, what do I do?" What would you say to me?[/quote]

I'd tell them to listen to and play the music they enjoy and join a band playing what you like...but also learn to read,learn about
chord tones/scales etc.,take lessons and don't limit yourself.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1359038' date='Sep 1 2011, 05:35 PM']I'd tell them to listen to and play the music they enjoy and join a band playing what you like...but also learn to read,learn about
chord tones/scales etc.,take lessons and don't limit yourself.[/quote]

That's idealistic and a cardboard cut-out approach though, Doddy. Also disparaging of people's natural inquisitiveness to find out more about the things they love doing. The beauty of music and anything creative is that there are always limits to your own ability, and no limits to the possibilities. When the student is ready, the teacher will arrive.

Also, have you any idea how dispiriting it is to try and learn something but have little application for what you are learning? And trying to absorb too much too quickly? If someone starts playing in a band they enjoy, they will not remain static, their desires will show them a path to their needs and create their own particular evolution of musical expression, which is surely the objective? They will seek out knowledge and guidance that suits their needs. If they don't understand their own needs and desires, what are the possibilities of them becoming expressive?

Don't take this ill mate, but you do sometimes come over as treating music as a job, for which a common set of tools is necessary.

[oldslapper]

You have no idea how much I try and stay away from these threads, but I'm tempted again to butt in.

Musical development is as much to do with those you play with as much as your own "shed" work.
This not only includes they're musical skill, but your colleagues as people. I love playing with the acts/bands I play in because of the relationships I have with each band member. You can shove your talent where it doesn't shine if you're an antisocial knob.

I am a guitar/bass tutor and my no. 1 mission is to get each student playing with other musicians, firstly to learn the spoken and unspoken language, as well as the written. It is a social activity, where we learn cooperation, listening, putting the song before our own ambition. These are life skills. But then again, I'm a selfish git and you must do as I say, or the talent fairy will come and put a curse on your alembic.

Bye

[lojo]

Funny how these threads come back to reading being the benchmark, I started the bass clef YTS thread, and made some effort, only to figure out that what I do is what I do and the time I was devoting to it, was better spent on other things as it wont change what I do (play covers in a number of bands)

Im not a pro, wont ever be, but earn from gigs, have fun and entertain others

If I could go back in time, Id learn to read, but then Id also learn the cruyff turn instinctively along with loads of other skills, and Id have an arsenal of skills that would challenge batman

[xilddx]

[quote name='oldslapper' post='1359122' date='Sep 1 2011, 07:14 PM']You have no idea how much I try and stay away from these threads, but I'm tempted again to butt in.

Musical development is as much to do with those you play with as much as your own "shed" work.
This not only includes they're musical skill, but your colleagues as people. I love playing with the acts/bands I play in because of the relationships I have with each band member. You can shove your talent where it doesn't shine if you're an antisocial knob.

I am a guitar/bass tutor and my no. 1 mission is to get each student playing with other musicians, firstly to learn the spoken and unspoken language, as well as the written. It is a social activity, where we learn cooperation, listening, putting the song before our own ambition. These are life skills. But then again, I'm a selfish git and you must do as I say, or the talent fairy will come and put a curse on your alembic.

Bye[/quote]
Completely agree, music is about communication and there are countless ways to do that.

[xilddx]

[quote name='lojo' post='1359147' date='Sep 1 2011, 07:38 PM'][b]Funny how these threads come back to reading being the benchmark,[/b] I started the bass clef YTS thread, and made some effort, only to figure out that what I do is what I do and the time I was devoting to it, was better spent on other things as it wont change what I do (play covers in a number of bands)

Im not a pro, wont ever be, but earn from gigs, have fun and entertain others

If I could go back in time, Id learn to read, but then Id also learn the cruyff turn instinctively along with loads of other skills, and Id have an arsenal of skills that would challenge batman[/quote]
Yes, it's weird. And a bit tiresome. Theory is way more useful to my mind and yet never generates this level of polarisation. probably because it's a matter of a sliding scale between can and can't. Theory can be applied in countless ways and is not as debatable.

Edited September 1, 2011 by silddx

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='lojo' post='1359147' date='Sep 1 2011, 07:38 PM']Funny how these threads come back to reading being the benchmark, I started the bass clef YTS thread, and made some effort, only to figure out that what I do is what I do and the time I was devoting to it, was better spent on other things as it wont change what I do (play covers in a number of bands)

Im not a pro, wont ever be, but earn from gigs, have fun and entertain others

If I could go back in time, Id learn to read, but then Id also learn the cruyff turn instinctively along with loads of other skills, and Id have an arsenal of skills that would challenge batman[/quote]

I'm exactly the same. Nothing more to add. Wish I'd learned more theory skills, but I was busy having fun instead. I have lost gigs through not being able to read, but what the hell. I can compose my own stuff by ear.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='1359159' date='Sep 1 2011, 07:52 PM']I'm exactly the same. Nothing more to add. Wish I'd learned more theory skills, but I was busy having fun instead. I have lost gigs through not being able to read, but what the hell. I can compose my own stuff by ear.[/quote]
I turned down a great (paying) gig with some great musicians at the weekend because I simply have not the time. What little I do have is not going on learning to read And before anyone says "get the f*** off 'ere and you'll have some!" I've tried that and it doesn't work

[oldslapper]

[quote name='lojo' post='1359147' date='Sep 1 2011, 07:38 PM']Funny how these threads come back to reading being the benchmark, I started the bass clef YTS thread, and made some effort, only to figure out that what I do is what I do and the time I was devoting to it, was better spent on other things as it wont change what I do (play covers in a number of bands)

Im not a pro, wont ever be, but earn from gigs, have fun and entertain others

If I could go back in time, Id learn to read, but then Id also learn the cruyff turn instinctively along with loads of other skills, and Id have an arsenal of skills that would challenge batman[/quote]


I'm sorry but I have to completely disagree..............I'd learn the Franny Lee keepie uppie, followed by the vinnie jones nut grabber and implement it at my local open mic night for those hard to reach notes.

[Faithless]

[quote name='silddx' post='1359020' date='Sep 1 2011, 07:23 PM']Laimis. A quick question.

If I was an up and coming bassist and I said to you, "I love pop and rock music, and I want to play the bass guitar in a rock band, but I don't know where to start, what do I do?" What would you say to me?[/quote]

Pretty much exactly what Doddy says. Listen, learn, get the band together.
What about 'scientific' side of that - scales, theory, etc - if player would really dig what he's doing, he would sooner or later come up with questions, when answers to them would involve all that mentioned stuff.