Funny Innit ..

[Bilbo]

[quote name='Johnston' post='1357345' date='Aug 31 2011, 11:53 AM']why would you need to read except for your own satisfaction on any instrument?[/quote]

Because, if you play in one band with one set, gig after gig, it is easy to remember details. If you play in loads of bands with different line-ups, different set lists with every gig being a different band and a different set of changes in different keys etc, the reading makes it easier to nail stuff and sound sophisticated without requiring the memory/recall of a herd of elephants.

[Lfalex v1.1]

[quote name='EdwardHimself' post='1357240' date='Aug 31 2011, 10:28 AM']I think you would have to learn to read music if you played the piano....[/quote]

It doesn't seem to have held Tori Amos up too much..

[quote name='SteveK' post='1357311' date='Aug 31 2011, 11:24 AM']I wouldn't disagree with that...
Problem is, by having no reading skills, learning and understanding theory will be a slower and more arduous task.

Learning to read may not necessarily make you a better player, but it will make you more employable. Of course, that may not be important to you...

If you don't read but you're enjoying your playing, then you certainly shouldn't feel guilty. If you enjoy it, then, there's a good chance that others will enjoy it. [/quote]


[quote name='Bilbo' post='1357351' date='Aug 31 2011, 11:56 AM']I have alwasy felt that my progress as a rounded musician is tied in very closely to my reading. I play guitar and read guitar charts (slowly), I write charts for other musicians (inc transposing instruments), I arrange stuff, read theory books etc all of which would be that much harder without the dots. My guitar playing (which is fair) does not improve my bass playing, it improves my understanding of the bigger picture, musically. THAT is what improves my playing.

I would also add that reading/playing through Bach Cello Suites has really improved my ear as well as my reading.[/quote]

But Steve and Bilbo are "pros" (as in they make a living out of playing), hence their perspectives on such matters.
Nice to see someone's content with it all at the moment.
If I had more time, my priority would be sleeping more. And even if I could read, I'd still have to work on my interpersonal skills so I could stay in a rehearsal room or studio formore than2 minutes without wanting to kill the other musicians or myself.

[BottomE]

Back to the OP. After moving back to England for 5 years now i went and visited all my old mates in France this year. All of them said that my French is better now than it was when i lived there! I find the same with theory and playing in general. I learn something new then leave it for a few weeks. There is some kind of process that goes on subconciously fitting all the parts into place - whatever i don't know but a break is often a way of getting better.

[RhysP]

[quote name='BigRedX' post='1357341' date='Aug 31 2011, 11:47 AM']Besides this thread is about progress on an instrument by playing another, not about being able to read.[/quote]
Indeed.
Fascinating though it is, Let's not take a detour down that particular road AGAIN, eh?

[Truckstop]

Quite!
For the last 3 years or so I've been slowly taking up acoustic guitar. Recently though, I've been making a real effort to learn songs and scales and now I'm organising a little jazz duo thing with a good friend of mine singing. I must put a soundclip up, I'm very proud of my instrumental ambidextrousness!
My bassplaying has improved no end. Making use of different timbres and exploring dynamics. Funnily enough, I also use my volume pedal a lot more too.

Truckstop

[Gust0o]

[quote name='RhysP' post='1357444' date='Aug 31 2011, 12:58 PM']Indeed.
Fascinating though it is, Let's not take a detour down that particular road AGAIN, eh?[/quote]

It's a very insistent SatNav, isn't it?

[RhysP]

[quote name='Gust0o' post='1357461' date='Aug 31 2011, 01:10 PM']It's a very insistent SatNav, isn't it? [/quote]
Yeah - it's not a TomTom, it's a RobRob.

[Bilbo]

[quote name='Lfalex v1.1' post='1357381' date='Aug 31 2011, 12:08 PM']But Steve and Bilbo are "pros" (as in they make a living out of playing), hence their perspectives on such matters.[/quote]

Sitting here at my Senior Probation Officer desk, I am thrilled to discover that I am a pro musicain. Does that mean I can go home now?

[Truckstop]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1357487' date='Aug 31 2011, 01:27 PM']Sitting here at my Senior Probation Officer desk, I am thrilled to discover that I am a pro musicain. Does that mean I can go home now? [/quote]

No, you need to fix the country first, ok?

Truckstop

[Lfalex v1.1]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1357487' date='Aug 31 2011, 01:27 PM']Sitting here at my Senior Pro[s]bation Officer[/s] desk, I am thrilled to discover that I am a pro musician. Does that mean I can go home now? [/quote]

Sorry. My bad. I can't ever recall your mentioning a job and assumed you made a living out of playing
I kind of fixed your response to conveniently reflect the unfacts.

[steve-bbb]

stopped playing back in about 95 when i sold all my stuff and didnt play at all until i bought my stone-clad trb 6 months ago - has taken about 6 months to get my fingers functioning in sync with my ear but the rest of it is like its never gone away

[Doddy]

[quote name='silddx' post='1357291' date='Aug 31 2011, 11:10 AM']I don't agree mate.

The piano is one of the easiest instruments to learn theory on because it has a linear layout. An instrument with courses (such as a guitar) makes it a three dimensional instrument and therefore more difficult to learn and apply theory to.[/quote]

I've always found the problem with guitar to learn theory is it is too easy to rely on movable fingering patterns and
chord shapes without knowing anything about what you are playing other than the shape,which is why many guitar
and bass players don't know things like chord tones and scales-they can play the pattern,but they don't know what
they are playing.You can't do this on a keyboard.

[risingson]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1357592' date='Aug 31 2011, 02:48 PM']I've always found the problem with guitar to learn theory is it is too easy to rely on movable fingering patterns and
chord shapes without knowing anything about what you are playing other than the shape,which is why many guitar
and bass players don't know things like chord tones and scales-they can play the pattern,but they don't know what
they are playing.You can't do this on a keyboard.[/quote]

And for the same reason, I find that guitar is a much more accessible instrument to play. As a younger child I was taken to piano lessons and hated it and showed no interest in carrying it on as a hobby. By the time I was 12 and had discovered guitar and all these sounds were just falling under my fingers, it felt much more natural than a piano ever did. Thus my entry into music and a greater understanding of theory was through guitar, scales, chordal knowledge, the lot.

[risingson]

[quote name='silddx' post='1356833' date='Aug 30 2011, 08:52 PM']Over the past couple of months, I have hardly played bass at home, but I play guitar every day. And when I go to rehearsals as a bassist and play songs we know, and work on new songs, I am a much better bassist. I am more fluid, more imaginative, more dynamic, more expressive and more comfortable. I am also playing more with a pick and right hand damping more. Along with the volume pedal which has become a large part of my natural style, I am really feeling it now, not just mechanical.

I am a much better player through not playing at home. Not that I am advocating this approach you understand.

I am finally happy not being a reader, I got fed up of feeling guilty about it and shed that stupid burden.

I am a happy bassist (for a f***ing change ).[/quote]

I am in exactly the same boat. This is because I don't actually have any basses at home right now, only an acoustic so I find myself playing much more guitar each day. As BigRedX pointed out it's one of the best reasons to take up another instrument; to have a slightly higher understanding of your role as a bassist.

[Earbrass]

[quote]Being a better bassist by not playing bass[/quote]

This is so true. I haven't picked a bass up for a couple of months or so, and my abilities have soared to the point where I now have a god-like facility with the instrument, as proved by the amazing lines I play [i]in my imagination[/i]. Sadly, the closer I get to physically holding a bass the faster these skills recede, so that by the time I next actually play I will almost certainly have reverted to "average to poor" status, or worse.

[Bilbo]

I just think that, by not playing your bass, you have 'forgotton' your abilities and are enjoying rediscovering them. If you stick with it, you will start to see your shortcomings again.

[Fat Rich]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1357621' date='Aug 31 2011, 03:16 PM']I just think that, by not playing your bass, you have 'forgotton' your abilities and are enjoying rediscovering them. If you stick with it, you will start to see your shortcomings again.[/quote]

Have you ever considered becoming a motivational speaker?

[Bilbo]

[quote name='Fat Rich' post='1357623' date='Aug 31 2011, 03:18 PM']Have you ever considered becoming a motivational speaker? [/quote]

You mean a manipulative, opportunisitc, cheesy grinned to**er?

No.

[Gust0o]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1357621' date='Aug 31 2011, 03:16 PM']I just think that, by not playing your bass, you have 'forgotton' your abilities and are enjoying rediscovering them. If you stick with it, you will start to see your shortcomings again.[/quote]

Well, if not a motivational speaker, maybe you could become the world's first pro roshambo player, eh?

Edited August 31, 2011 by Gust0o

[Prime_BASS]

A large part of some misery I've been getting is the fact I've come from guitar playing to bass.
I want to be a good bass player not a good guitarist that plays bass.

Ive been enjoying "regressing" by playing guitar and usinga pick on bass lately.

I'll soon get bored again and play fingers hahaa.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Prime_BASS' post='1357667' date='Aug 31 2011, 04:06 PM']A large part of some misery I've been getting is the fact I've come from guitar playing to bass.
I want to be a good bass player not a good guitarist that plays bass.

Ive been enjoying "regressing" by playing guitar and usinga pick on bass lately.

I'll soon get bored again and play fingers hahaa.[/quote]
I suppose it depends what level you're at, but forget all that. It's mostly rubbish. What does 'being a good bass player' mean? To me it means understanding your role within a particular ensemble, and interpreting the music you are playing with sensitivity to the writer's intentions. It's no different from any other instrument. You have a musical voice, you just need to find it. Usually that is listening to other musicians play and deciding what you like and don't like.

The problems start when you get told all sorts of stuff from people and you feel you HAVE to learn them in order to be a GOOD bassist. You MUST learn all the notes on the board, you MUST know all scales in all keys, you MUST understand the cycle of fifths and fourths, you MUST (god forbid) understand the II IV I movement, you MUST learn to read music notation, you MUST try flats on a P bass, yadda yadda ..

The only thing you MUST do, is ignore all this and get in tune with your personal musical needs and voice and follow them. You will build your toolbox based on what you personally need, not what the cardboard cut out bassist curriculum from the academy dictates.

Of course, this comes from my point of view of the pop and rock bassist playing original music. To be a good sessioneer, jazzer, or play classical or other musical form rooted in heritage and discipline, you will need all those theory and reading skills, and a technical toolbox you can execute with ease. In which case a good teacher will be what you need. But never forget you have a voice of your own, don't be afraid to use it. Many of the great rock guitarists studied players of other instruments, like horns and winds, for their phrasing. A lot of great bassists look to cello for inspiration.

As a guitarist, you probably have loads of expressive techniques down that 'real' bassists never really look at, use them.

[Gust0o]

[quote name='silddx' post='1357792' date='Aug 31 2011, 06:04 PM']The only thing you MUST do, is ignore all this and get in tune with your personal musical needs and voice and follow them. You will build your toolbox based on what you personally need, not what the cardboard cut out bassist curriculum from the academy dictates.

Of course, this comes from my point of view of the pop and rock bassist playing original music. To be a good sessioneer, jazzer, or play classical or other musical form rooted in heritage and discipline, you will need all those theory and reading skills, and a technical toolbox you can execute with ease. In which case a good teacher will be what you need. But never forget you have a voice of your own, don't be afraid to use it.[/quote]

Well said, Nige.

[Bilbo]

My only criticism on your position, Nigel, is that there are many impressionable people out there who look to established folk for advice on what is the besty to get better. My position is to advocate the btroadest possible learning experiences and the widest possible range of tools. That way, a developing player can get good and keep getting good as they find themselves.

If i use myself as an example, I started on ELO then Iron Maiden/NWOBHM, Rock, Prog, fusion, Jazz. If I had stuck with the 'stuff I needed' at stage one of that journey, I may have been denied the opportunity to move onto the other stages and shot myself in the foot in terms of the real journey I was on as opposed to the one I thought I was on a 17. Of course people can 'get away with' limited learning (there are millionaires with [i]that[/i] CV) but I always advocate for the widest learning possible to ensure that the individual's potential is given the best possible chance. Its easy to think you are good when you are the best player in Aberystwyth, for example. Its what you are like when you leave that will count. The thing I hear most from older players (espacially the ones that give up) is 'I wish I had......'. All I say is 'do the work and it will pay you back'. Advocating for the shortest distance between two points is irresposnible, IMO.

But then again, I may be a total arse.....

[Pete Academy]

Nige, please don't desert me. You were my compatriot in the non-reading argument. Come on, please don't do this to me. Ditch those dots and come back to your senses. Now.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1358009' date='Aug 31 2011, 08:23 PM']My only criticism on your position, Nigel, is that there are many impressionable people out there who look to established folk for advice on what is the besty to get better. My position is to advocate the btroadest possible learning experiences and the widest possible range of tools. That way, a developing player can get good and keep getting good as they find themselves.

If i use myself as an example, I started on ELO then Iron Maiden/NWOBHM, Rock, Prog, fusion, Jazz. If I had stuck with the 'stuff I needed' at stage one of that journey, I may have been denied the opportunity to move onto the other stages and shot myself in the foot in terms of the real journey I was on as opposed to the one I thought I was on a 17. Of course people can 'get away with' limited learning (there are millionaires with [i]that[/i] CV) but I always advocate for the widest learning possible to ensure that the individual's potential is given the best possible chance. Its easy to think you are good when you are the best player in Aberystwyth, for example. Its what you are like when you leave that will count. The thing I hear most from older players (espacially the ones that give up) is 'I wish I had......'. All I say is 'do the work and it will pay you back'. Advocating for the shortest distance between two points is irresposnible, IMO.

But then again, I may be a total arse.....[/quote]
Um, your only criticism, Rob, is that my entire viewpoint is irresponsible

The thing is, impressionable people need guidance to happiness and inspiration to continue their path, otherwise it's just work, and that can put them off continuing I think. When they develop a little, and hopefully start to realise their potential, then they need further guidance, and so on and on. You already know I agree that for many musical endeavours, a solid foundation in the academic is necessary. But there are many musical disciplines (I use that word loosely) that don't. I think the important thing about music is that people are enabled to express themselves on their guitar or bass, therefore physical facility is of paramount importance at the start, then some basic theory, then some more theory. But developing ones ears and philosophy is the most important thing to my mind, and it is possible to do that without much theory and certainly without reading. Of course, there are instruments that demand an academic approach.