How to improve as a bass player?

[Phil Starr]

I'm not a good bass player. You probably tear your hair out when you hear people like me playing in pubs. You know the sort of thing; plays the root in time and has copied the odd bass line from the tabs, and that on a good day.

I started playing as a middle aged adult from scratch 4 years ago, went straight into a band so the bassist could move on to other things and was playing pub sets of 2 hours in just over a year from playing my first notes. My learning experience has been a desperate scrabble to learn the next song for the next rehearsal and gig a week later. This means that I have seized on what works with no attempt to master theory or scales. Not that I am averse to a more thoughtful approach I just haven't had time to get off the merry-go-round.

Currently I grab the chords play in the root a lot and have found the fifth, minor seventh octave and chromatic progressions are my friends. I'm just starting to play with the major and minor pentatonics. I tend to think in terms of box patterns rather than scales, so most of the time I don't even know which note I'm playing, just where they are relative to the root. I never improvise except when working on a new song and never live. I've never had a lesson in my life.

So that's me. Where do I go next?

[Blademan_98]

Join the club!

I have now started to learn to read.

Learn where the notes are. Say them when you practise your 'box' scales etc.

Then learn different styles and techniques!

I learned to play the bass because I need to for some songs in my acoustic duo.

It makes the whole thing come to life when you can see in your mind the notes.

You can get out of the boxes then!

Good Luck

[bigjohn]

Sounds like you'd be best off getting some lessons.

I've never bothered, but then I enjoy beating my brains on brick walls so don't copy me

[redstriper]

[quote name='Phil Starr' post='1361908' date='Sep 4 2011, 04:55 PM']So that's me. Where do I go next?[/quote]
It's up to you.

You sound just like me except I've been playing 35 years without a lesson or any knowledge of music theory.
In fact you're ahead of me with all that major and minor pentatonic business.
The main difference is I play mostly original material which means I make up the bass line and no one can say it's wrong - which is nice.
Punters don't care about how much theory you know or how fast you can play, it's more important to have the right feel which comes from your heart and soul.

Forget the destination, enjoy the ride and realise you're already there.

Oh and practise, practise practise................

Edited September 4, 2011 by redstriper

[bigjohn]

[quote name='Blademan_98' post='1361923' date='Sep 4 2011, 05:09 PM']Join the club!

I have now started to learn to read.

Learn where the notes are. Say them when you practise your 'box' scales etc.

Then learn different styles and techniques!

I learned to play the bass because I need to for some songs in my acoustic duo.

It makes the whole thing come to life when you can see in your mind the notes.

You can get out of the boxes then!

Good Luck [/quote]

You don't necessarily have to learn to read to do this. Understanding scales and relationships between different notes in different keys doesn't require eyesight.

Although again, if I had my time over, I think learning to read would have been quicker and easier to these ends than learning by ear.

[bigjohn]

[quote name='redstriper' post='1361930' date='Sep 4 2011, 05:15 PM']It's up to you.

You sound just like me except I've been playing 35 years without a lesson or any knowledge of music theory.
In fact you're ahead of me with all that major and minor pentatonic business.
The main difference is I play mostly original material which means I make up the bass line and no one can say it's wrong - which is nice.
Punters don't care about how much theory you know or how fast you can play, it's more important to have the right feel which comes from your heart and soul.

Forget the destination, enjoy the ride and realise you're already there.

Oh and practise, practise practise................[/quote]

Right on!

[Faithless]

This is all you need:

[url="http://www.joehubbardbass.com/332/bass-guitar-practice-principles-part-1/"]http://www.joehubbardbass.com/332/bass-gui...nciples-part-1/[/url]

(don't forget to check other blog posts there too)

[Hobbayne]

I would suggest training your ear. Listen to the original bassline and try to play along with it. Dont rely on tabs they are a bad habit to get into.

[bigjohn]

[quote name='Hobbayne' post='1361965' date='Sep 4 2011, 05:45 PM']I would suggest training your ear. Listen to the original bassline and try to play along with it. Dont rely on tabs they are a bad habit to get into.[/quote]


To be fair though, if he does that, all he's doing is learning which shapes he already has fit different lines he can hear. Which is useful, and pretty much how I approached bass in the beginning.

However, he's asking about learning scales and where the notes are on a fretboard. You don't learn that be playing along with stuff.

[Doddy]

[quote name='Phil Starr' post='1361908' date='Sep 4 2011, 04:55 PM']so most of the time I don't even know which note I'm playing, just where they are relative to the root.[/quote]
There is the first thing you can learn.

[quote name='bigjohn' post='1361931' date='Sep 4 2011, 05:18 PM']You don't necessarily have to learn to read to do this. Understanding scales and relationships between different notes in different keys doesn't require eyesight.
Although again, if I had my time over, I think learning to read would have been quicker and easier to these ends than learning by ear.[/quote]
You don't need to read to learn that,but it will make things easier as you will have access to a greater range of material
that you can use for study and reference.

Learn about chord tones...not just the patterns and shapes,but the notes as well. If you learn them based on shape you will end
up being stuck in that pattern,whereas if you learn the notes of the chords you have access to them over the entire range of
the instrument. Which is another reason why you should really learn the notes on the fingerboard.

[Blademan_98]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1362016' date='Sep 4 2011, 06:30 PM']Learn about chord tones...not just the patterns and shapes,but the notes as well. If you learn them based on shape you will end
up being stuck in that pattern,whereas if you learn the notes of the chords you have access to them over the entire range of
the instrument. Which is another reason why you should really learn the notes on the fingerboard.[/quote]

As ever, Doddy puts it a far more eloquent way than I

[Phil Starr]

Wow! I've only been gone a couple of hours. Thanks everyone. I suppose the question I'm asking is how best to spend a limited time improving. I'm old enough not to expect shortcuts but I know I haven't time to do everything. I play in two bands including an acoustic duo and I have about 200 songs learned. I need to practice pretty hard to keep them all up in the air and I try to learn a new song about every other week, mostly from chords, tabs tend not to be very accurate anyway and I only go to them if I'm stuck.

I practice about an hour a day. Sadly keeping this up for another 30 years isn't an option as i will be well into my eighties by then!

So lessons, learning formal scales or musical theory would all have to come out of practice time, at least in part. What would be the one thing you would do next?

[algmusic]

[quote name='Hobbayne' post='1361965' date='Sep 4 2011, 05:45 PM']I would suggest training your ear. Listen to the original bassline and try to play along with it. Dont rely on tabs they are a bad habit to get into.[/quote]

+1

When I used to teach kids in bands the thing that annoyed me the most was that the kids wanted to learn the song so fast they were happy to play tab without actually listening to the song. That's how you get bad musician.. they don't use their ears. Train those ears my friend.

An old friend of mine told me, once you realise that practicing is just playing, practicing is no longer a chore. If you commit just a 15mins a day on a specific target, you'll surprised how much better you will be in just a week, then a month then 6months. it's better than 2hrs once a week, trust me, I've tried every shortcut

[Fat Rich]

[quote name='Phil Starr' post='1362046' date='Sep 4 2011, 06:59 PM']....
So lessons, learning formal scales or musical theory would all have to come out of practice time, at least in part. What would be the one thing you would do next?[/quote]

Not knowing the note names on the fingerboard will slow down almost everything else you try to learn, learn the moneymakers first (which is up to 5th or 6th fret) and once you've got them down then get to work on the rest of 'em. Long term aim to know them instantly without having to count up or down the neck from the one note that you know well. You'd be surprised how many bass players and guitarists haven't got this down.

It'll probably also make it easier to learn and remember all these tunes you're playing if you can think in terms of what key they're in and what chord tones you're playing, rather than having to remember the pattern and the fret number that works for each song. Also you'll be able to talk music to the other muscians in your bands without sounding like a drummer, that'll make you feel better about your playing straight away.

Reading music is a useful skill so I'd say give it a go and see how you get on, it will really force you to learn your note names on the bass. You might get some tips from this thread: [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=111038&hl=Bass+clef+yts"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=...l=Bass+clef+yts[/url]

TBH I've found learning to read a real chore and because I don't use the skills often enough it all starts to get away from me, if you have the same problem then most music theory books have tab and a CD these days so it's not a big problem. You'll be limiting your choices of book a little but not much until you start getting into serious theory books.

But start learning your fingerboard first I'd say.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='Hobbayne' post='1361965' date='Sep 4 2011, 05:45 PM']I would suggest training your ear. Listen to the original bassline and try to play along with it.[/quote]

Playing along in real time will only take you so far. Once you are reasonable fluent at playing along with songs then the next evolution in developing your ear is to try to listen first to a song section, say a verse or chorus, then stop the recording and try to play it right first time - no "hunting" up and down the frets for the right notes allowed .

Listen to the section/song several times, learn to hum/sing/mumble the bass line, try to visualise how you will play it THEN pick up the bass.

To be fair most people (especially me) require some formal ear training to reach this level. My personal recommendation is bruce arnolds "one note" series and "fanatics guide to ear training".

[Phil Starr]

This is getting closer to the sort of advice I was looking for. I'd say my 'ear' is pretty poor. My sense of rhythm seems to be OK, some of our songs are in 12/8, 6/8, 5/4 and others have other Latin rhythms that I cope with. the only thing I've struggled with is the little bit of 7/4 in 'Times Like These'. I can 'hear' rhythm pretty well and that gets you halfway there I suppose.

Whilst I am getting better I can't really hear the notes very clearly. I struggle just to pick out the root from a song and tend to work out songs by trial and error. I avoid songs where I don't have an accurate set of chords and tend to ask our guitarist to help out a lot of the time. I can't sing in tune at all confirming all the bass player stereotypes.

So are we saying it is a choice between ear training and formal music theory? I've another 20 songs to learn in the next two months.

[Doddy]

[quote name='Phil Starr' post='1365376' date='Sep 7 2011, 03:44 PM']So are we saying it is a choice between ear training and formal music theory? I've another 20 songs to learn in the next two months.[/quote]

No...do both.It's never an either/or choice.

If you get your ear together you will be able to hear what the chord is,if you get your theory sorted you will
be able to know what notes are in the chord-it will also give you the knowledge to know where a song is
going before it gets there (this is where understanding at least the basics of diatonic harmony comes in
very handy.)
By using a combination of theory and ear training it becomes easy to learn 20 songs in an afternoon.

[Dave Vader]

[quote name='Fat Rich' post='1362184' date='Sep 4 2011, 08:41 PM']Reading music is a useful skill so I'd say give it a go and see how you get on, it will really force you to learn your note names on the bass. You might get some tips from this thread: [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=111038&hl=Bass+clef+yts"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=...l=Bass+clef+yts[/url][/quote]


Unless you are a lazy git like myself, and just look at the first note on the stave, and move relative to that in semitones/tones (best not to, it encourages mistakes)

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='Phil Starr' post='1365376' date='Sep 7 2011, 03:44 PM']I struggle just to pick out the root from a song and tend to work out songs by trial and error. I avoid songs where I don't have an accurate set of chords and tend to ask our guitarist to help out a lot of the time. I can't sing in tune at all confirming all the bass player stereotypes.

So are we saying it is a choice between ear training and formal music theory? I've another 20 songs to learn in the next two months.[/quote]

You need some theory to be able to progress with ear training.

IMO bruce arnolds stuff is the only game in town for ear training that is practically usable from the start.
He focuses on key/root recongnition and recognising notes in the context of a key rather than the classical
interval based approach. It will totally solidify your ability to hear key centers. Honest - 6 few months of using
this stuff and you wont know yourself. Actually makes music more interesting to listen to as well as you
start to hear detail that you missed before. All BA's courses include the necessary theory to support the
ear training.

[url="http://www.muse-eek.com/books/books.html"]http://www.muse-eek.com/books/books.html[/url]

In the first instance I would go for:

"Contextual Ear Training Memorizing Sound Through Singing"

"Ear Training: One Note-Intermediate Level"

--------

This proggy is quite useful too, although personally I prefer non-computer based courses.

[url="http://www.miles.be/software/34-functional-ear-trainer-v2"]http://www.miles.be/software/34-functional-ear-trainer-v2[/url]

Edited September 7, 2011 by bassman7755

[Bilbo]

One step at a time. Slowly. No short cuts. No magic bullets. Just tedious repetitive practice. Scales. Arpeggios.

I love it.

PS. Don't waste time with double thumbing and two handed tapping.

[Rumple]

I've just started watching the Victor Wooten DVD Groove Workshop, it's very interesting, unlike all other instructional DVD's it's not about how to play a certain style or about music theory as such it's more about you approach to playing, for me I liked the statement about playing the wrong note "you are only ever one fret away from a right note"

Worth a watch even if his playing is not your thing.

[Doddy]

It's a good DVD-although I think that Anthony Wellingtons section on rhythms is the best bit from an educational
point of view.
I think Victor talks rubbish at times-like when he says that he embraces wrong notes.Anyone that's seen him live will
know that he grimaces and even groans when he makes a mistake.

It's still an enjoyable DVD though.

[gary mac]

[quote name='Phil Starr' date='Sep 7 2011, 03:44 PM' post='1365376']
the only thing I've struggled with is the little bit of 7/4 in 'Times Like These'.

I recently had to learn this for an audition, at first those sections were tripping me up until I started counting it "1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and 5 and 6 and 7". As soon as I did then the chord changes were spot on and it all became easy.

[Phil Starr]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1365383' date='Sep 7 2011, 03:55 PM']No...do both.It's never an either/or choice.

If you get your ear together you will be able to hear what the chord is,if you get your theory sorted you will
be able to know what notes are in the chord-it will also give you the knowledge to know where a song is
going before it gets there (this is where understanding at least the basics of diatonic harmony comes in
very handy.)
By using a combination of theory and ear training it becomes easy to learn 20 songs in an afternoon.[/quote]

The trouble is that I know you are right but I wonder at the cost in time. I've two friends who learned classical piano as kids to a good standard and they both have an uncanny ability to listen to a song once and play it back fairly accurately first time with all the chords in their correct inversions. It would take me a day to play the melody only and twenty listenings. They both had good ears though before they started though.

I don't have enough life left to do the 10,000 hours at the hour a day i can spare for practice or formal learning. Equally I don't expect to become expert, just better than I am now. I'm not looking for shortcuts, just the most effective way of using the time I have and some practical next steps.

[Phil Starr]

[quote name='Dave Vader' post='1365396' date='Sep 7 2011, 04:09 PM']Unless you are a lazy git like myself, and just look at the first note on the stave, and move relative to that in semitones/tones (best not to, it encourages mistakes)[/quote]
Yeah I do that too.