How to improve as a bass player?

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='Phil Starr' post='1366118' date='Sep 8 2011, 10:07 AM']The trouble is that I know you are right but I wonder at the cost in time. I've two friends who learned classical piano as kids to a good standard and they both have an uncanny ability to listen to a song once and play it back fairly accurately first time with all the chords in their correct inversions. It would take me a day to play the melody only and twenty listenings. They both had good ears though before they started though.

I don't have enough life left to do the 10,000 hours at the hour a day i can spare for practice or formal learning. Equally I don't expect to become expert, just better than I am now. I'm not looking for shortcuts, just the most effective way of using the time I have and some practical next steps.[/quote]

The audio courses I already mentioned will give a very good return on invested time. Not only that but you can often make use of otherwise "dead" time such as when your travelling/driving, or even at work if your a bit cheeky

Really the old "Ive got a talented mate who can effortlessly do X and therefore its pointless for me to even try" is the oldest excuse in the book for inaction, just order the courses today and get started.

[Doddy]

[quote name='gary mac' post='1366019' date='Sep 8 2011, 07:33 AM']I recently had to learn this for an audition, at first those sections were tripping me up until I started counting it "1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and 5 and 6 and 7". As soon as I did then the chord changes were spot on and it all became easy. [/quote]

Being pedantic about things (Me? Pedantic? Noooo. )-if you count it like that you will get a bar of 13/8 instead of 7/4, unless you are counting '7' as two syllables (sev-en,counted as two quavers). Otherwise the correct count would be
1+2+3+4+5+6+7+

[Doddy]

[quote name='Phil Starr' post='1366118' date='Sep 8 2011, 10:07 AM']I don't have enough life left to do the 10,000 hours at the hour a day i can spare for practice or formal learning. Equally I don't expect to become expert, just better than I am now. I'm not looking for shortcuts, just the most effective way of using the time I have and some practical next steps.[/quote]

You can read about things like chord tones anywhere and then apply them to the instrument when you get chance. It's not overly time consuming to read that a C major chord contains the notes C,E,G.You could read and understand this in a few minutes while watching telly or having a crap or anything. Then when you get to pick up the bass,you just have to play them. If you only did one of these a day,you would know what notes make up every major chord in less than 2 weeks,and will have seriously increased your fingerboard knowledge.
Of course,you could learn the shape in 10 minutes and move it up and down but you won't actually know what you're playing-only the shape.

[Phil Starr]

[quote name='bassman7755' post='1366242' date='Sep 8 2011, 12:06 PM']The audio courses I already mentioned will give a very good return on invested time. Not only that but you can often make use of otherwise "dead" time such as when your travelling/driving, or even at work if your a bit cheeky

Really the old "Ive got a talented mate who can effortlessly do X and therefore its pointless for me to even try" is the oldest excuse in the book for inaction, just order the courses today and get started.[/quote]

Yeah, I'll have a look at the courses, no point in asking for advice unless you intend taking it!

I'm not saying they do it effortlessly but that they spent thousands of hours as a kid learning these skills with proper teachers taking exams. Grade 8 piano A level music, that sort of thing and that that sort of effort and training has given them what i would like. I know it is the formal knowledge that makes it look like magic. My problem is that I would love to spend hours learning this stuff but I can't. So which bit do I tackle first and why?

[Phil Starr]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1366282' date='Sep 8 2011, 12:34 PM']You can read about things like chord tones anywhere and then apply them to the instrument when you get chance. It's not overly time consuming to read that a C major chord contains the notes C,E,G.You could read and understand this in a few minutes while watching telly or having a crap or anything. Then when you get to pick up the bass,you just have to play them. If you only did one of these a day,you would know what notes make up every major chord in less than 2 weeks,and will have seriously increased your fingerboard knowledge.
Of course,you could learn the shape in 10 minutes and move it up and down but you won't actually know what you're playing-only the shape.[/quote]
OK that sounds fairly practical. If I'm honest I'm most of the way there with this and it wouldn't be hard to fill in the gaps. I already know about triads, bits and pieces about modes, circles of fifths and snippets of other musical knowlege, just enough to scare myself with my own ignorance I suppose. None of it is systematic though and it is knowing where to start.

I also want to understand how things make me a better player. Its easy to see how ear training will improve things and I'm trying to work on that. Music theory is trickier. If I'm playing F# then my fingers know where the 5th above is without thinking and my brain knows it is C#. I can play scales of F#,C# without thinking but how does knowing the note names help other than when I'm talking to another musician. That is probably a dumb question but I suppose it is the bit I don't get.

[gary mac]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1366263' date='Sep 8 2011, 12:22 PM']Being pedantic about things (Me? Pedantic? Noooo. )-if you count it like that you will get a bar of 13/8 instead of 7/4, unless you are counting '7' as two syllables (sev-en,counted as two quavers). Otherwise the correct count would be
1+2+3+4+5+6+7+[/quote]

Thanks Doddy, I obviously can't count and type You are of course correct, and if you hadn't pointed it out, it would probably have caused more confusion for Phil.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='Phil Starr' post='1366341' date='Sep 8 2011, 01:13 PM']Yeah, I'll have a look at the courses, no point in asking for advice unless you intend taking it!

I'm not saying they do it effortlessly but that they spent thousands of hours as a kid learning these skills with proper teachers taking exams. Grade 8 piano A level music, that sort of thing and that that sort of effort and training has given them what i would like. I know it is the formal knowledge that makes it look like magic. My problem is that I would love to spend hours learning this stuff but I can't. So which bit do I tackle first and why?[/quote]

I feel Im answering the same question over again but ....

The vast investment in time your classically trained mates made is not necessary to achieve some useful amount of the capabilities they have attained. Mostly what they have learned is how to recognise and label recurring musical devices and to understand how they are pieced together to form a typical song.

I think also you are overestimating the difficulty and skill required to do what your mates are doing. Having a "good ear" is just a form of pattern recognition. When your mates replay a song from memory they are not recalling hundreds of individual notes in a seemingly savant like display of recall - they are actually reconstructing the song using based on recurring musical devices that they have learned to recognise. Its really not as hard as it looks from the outside.

A non musical example is gary kasparov maintains that if you were to place chess peices completely randomly on a board unconstrained by any rules he would have no more ability to remember that pattern than a novice player because his elephantine memory for chess positions is entirely pattern based.

The courses I recommended are very targeted at the most immediately useful thing which is recognition of key centers and note functions and that is IMO where you should start. As you go you can supplement this with chord type recognition from a more classical based course such as the Burge relative pitch course.

Edited September 8, 2011 by bassman7755

[Doddy]

[quote name='Phil Starr' post='1366369' date='Sep 8 2011, 01:35 PM']I also want to understand how things make me a better player. Its easy to see how ear training will improve things and I'm trying to work on that. Music theory is trickier. If I'm playing F# then my fingers know where the 5th above is without thinking and my brain knows it is C#. I can play scales of F#,C# without thinking but how does knowing the note names help other than when I'm talking to another musician. That is probably a dumb question but I suppose it is the bit I don't get.[/quote]
Well,to be able to communicate with other musicians sounds like a good reason on its own.

OK...you can play a C# scale without thinking-I'm guessing you are playing a pattern or shape like a lot of
players. But,can you play it on one string or over various octaves? If you know the notes you have the whole
fingerboard at your disposal-if you know the shape,you have one shape you can work with.

[uncle psychosis]

[quote name='Phil Starr' post='1361908' date='Sep 4 2011, 04:55 PM']I'm not a good bass player. You probably tear your hair out when you hear people like me playing in pubs. You know the sort of thing; plays the root in time and has copied the odd bass line from the tabs, and that on a good day.

I started playing as a middle aged adult from scratch 4 years ago, went straight into a band so the bassist could move on to other things and was playing pub sets of 2 hours in just over a year from playing my first notes. My learning experience has been a desperate scrabble to learn the next song for the next rehearsal and gig a week later. This means that I have seized on what works with no attempt to master theory or scales. Not that I am averse to a more thoughtful approach I just haven't had time to get off the merry-go-round.

Currently I grab the chords play in the root a lot and have found the fifth, minor seventh octave and chromatic progressions are my friends. I'm just starting to play with the major and minor pentatonics. I tend to think in terms of box patterns rather than scales, so most of the time I don't even know which note I'm playing, just where they are relative to the root. I never improvise except when working on a new song and never live. I've never had a lesson in my life.

So that's me. Where do I go next?[/quote]

You are, effectively, me (except I have a bit of formal music training elsewhere).

I recently started taking lessons and I've learned a lot---probably more in 2 or 3 hours lessons than I had in the previous year. Getting my teacher to help me sort out my technique has made playing (and therefore learning) songs easier.

[algmusic]

[quote name='uncle psychosis' post='1366689' date='Sep 8 2011, 05:21 PM']You are, effectively, me (except I have a bit of formal music training elsewhere).

I recently started taking lessons and I've learned a lot---probably more in 2 or 3 hours lessons than I had in the previous year. Getting my teacher to help me sort out my technique has made playing (and therefore learning) songs easier.[/quote]
+10000

it's been the same with me always for drums and bass. Even though I still go through book and things, but lesson with a [size=3]good [/size]teach whether long term or short is priceless..

[Phil Starr]

I've got to thank everyone again for taking time to answer my questions, judging by the number of hits there are other people who are interested in your answers. Of course they may just be wondering how stupid my questions can get

Bassman7755 Honestly I get what you are saying. I'm going to do some ear training along the lines you suggest. Personally I think the evidence is that we are all somewhere on the bell curve of abilities ranging from those with perfect pitch to the tone deaf. Having said that we are not trapped by our genetics, practice and learning will take us a long way. All I can say is I personally find rhythm easier than tone so I need to work on tone more.

Doddy, I seem to be reserving my most stupid questions for you, sorry. Yes I can play scales up one string and playing over two octaves is just another spider exercise for me. In the end they are both more patterns, I'm incorrigible. Perhaps I should just move on to Nashville notation and accept my limited abilities.

I suppose what I am asking for is for someone to explain how musical theory will improve my playing in a practical sense. I don't doubt that it will, and I read as much as I can. In a theoretical sense I understand modes, scales, triads pentatonics and can even convert sheet music into tab so I must know what all the little squiggles mean. None of this is any practical use to me so far. If I'm playing a new song and it moves from G to C then I know the patterns for both, I know what notes there are between them and which ones they have in common and I play some variation of those, it works.

Lots of books, teachers and bassists and other musicians I respect seem to emphasize the learning of scales all over the fretboard and knowing, usually by calling out, all the notes in each scale. Major scales followed by minor scales and eventually all the modes and so on. I don't think they are all wrong, I just don't get it. It's a huge investment of time and it is immensely boring to just play scales even for 10 min's each practice so I need to have a reason I understand to start this. Can anyone explain?

Uncle psychosis, that's really interesting, what sort of things did you learn and how has it helped?

[Linus27]

[quote name='redstriper' post='1361930' date='Sep 4 2011, 05:15 PM']It's up to you.

You sound just like me except I've been playing 35 years without a lesson or any knowledge of music theory.
In fact you're ahead of me with all that major and minor pentatonic business.
The main difference is I play mostly original material which means I make up the bass line and no one can say it's wrong - which is nice.
Punters don't care about how much theory you know or how fast you can play, it's more important to have the right feel which comes from your heart and soul.

Forget the destination, enjoy the ride and realise you're already there.

Oh and practise, practise practise................[/quote]

I would tend to agree with this. However I would add the following to help improve. Try and record rehearsals so you can listen back to what you are playing and see if better bass lines pop into your head or to hear how your bass lines work with the rest of the music. I am amazed at the amount of people who I have played with who never record anything and then only remember bits or forget what they were playing at the last rehearsal.

[uncle psychosis]

[quote name='Phil Starr' post='1367332' date='Sep 9 2011, 09:34 AM']Uncle psychosis, that's really interesting, what sort of things did you learn and how has it helped?[/quote]

So far its been mainly technique things. My left hand technique was/is pretty terrible. Learning to play `properly' has made it easier for me to play some songs, my poor technique was holding me back.

[Fat Rich]

[quote name='Phil Starr' post='1367332' date='Sep 9 2011, 09:34 AM'].........

I suppose what I am asking for is for someone to explain how musical theory will improve my playing in a practical sense. I don't doubt that it will, and I read as much as I can. In a theoretical sense I understand modes, scales, triads pentatonics and can even convert sheet music into tab so I must know what all the little squiggles mean. None of this is any practical use to me so far. If I'm playing a new song and it moves from G to C then I know the patterns for both, I know what notes there are between them and which ones they have in common and I play some variation of those, it works.

Lots of books, teachers and bassists and other musicians I respect seem to emphasize the learning of scales all over the fretboard and knowing, usually by calling out, all the notes in each scale. Major scales followed by minor scales and eventually all the modes and so on. I don't think they are all wrong, I just don't get it. It's a huge investment of time and it is immensely boring to just play scales even for 10 min's each practice so I need to have a reason I understand to start this. Can anyone explain?

Uncle psychosis, that's really interesting, what sort of things did you learn and how has it helped?[/quote]

Sounds like you sort of know lots of music theory but haven't connected it all together yet, maybe a couple of lessons with a good teacher would help you make it work in the real world. It might be the quickest way to focus on which aspects of study are going to be the best use of your time.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='Phil Starr' post='1367332' date='Sep 9 2011, 09:34 AM']I suppose what I am asking for is for someone to explain how musical theory will improve my playing in a practical sense. I don't doubt that it will, and I read as much as I can. In a theoretical sense I understand modes, scales, triads pentatonics and can even convert sheet music into tab so I must know what all the little squiggles mean. None of this is any practical use to me so far. If I'm playing a new song and it moves from G to C then I know the patterns for both, I know what notes there are between them and which ones they have in common and I play some variation of those, it works.[/quote]

Imagine you are deaf. Imagine you know how to speak english, you can spell and you know grammar, but you cant lip read ...

Thats the situation your in as a player who knows lots of thoery and technique but lacking a trained ear.

Personally my moderately trained ear helps me enourmousely every time I play, it helps me identify the basic harmony of a song quickly if I'm learning it so I dont have to slavishly pick out every every single note. It helps me intelligently vary a bass line from the original in a way that is consistent with the feel of the song. It helped when I was playing live and the band spontainiously lauched in to "sweet home alabama" even though I've never played the song in my life - I instinctively knew from the "flavour" of the song it was a mixolydian based progression progression and thus what was appropriate to play and what wasnt.

Edited September 9, 2011 by bassman7755

[Bilbo]

Let's put this in context. Music theory is the whole shebang, not just the maths. If you know every single chord, scale arpeggio and substitution, you are not finished. The theory attached to playing a groove is still theory. The theory attached to ear training is still theory. The theory attached to any element of performance is still theory. The theory attached to bleeding every ounce of emotion out of one note is still theory. The learning we need to undertake to become better players is infinite. The theory bit is in understanding every element of what we do in order to be able to make the million minute adjustments per second required to execute a perfect performance. Being able to groove is not seperate to chord theory or scale theory, They are completely symbiotic. What theorist are appalled by is the 'bang away and if it sounds good it is good' school of playing. It may happen if the planets are aligned but, IME, if you don't understand, on at least some level, WHY something works, you will not be able to replicate it. If you understand it, and particularly if you can explain it, it is a theory that you have absorbed. If you don't understand what you do, you will remain a lightweight, a mimc and the musical equivalent of a child dressing up like his or her parents. You may be a millionaire doing it, and good luck to you if you are, but you will remain a musical lightweight.