Gear vs Playing

[4000]

[quote name='Mykesbass' post='1370757' date='Sep 12 2011, 05:04 PM']And fair play to you for being that way. I'm personally probably not of an artistic enough bent to appreciate that aspect of it - I'm more of a bit of an old tart of a performer (think Bruce Forsythe rather than Van Gogh)! Both as valid in my book and far more important than the gear etc.[/quote]

Well TBH before I got into music (playing & writing) I spent most of my time painting, drawing and making models (yep, nerd alert); even studied fine art at college (Tracey Emin was at our place...). Music to me was just another form of self-expression. Half the time it drives me mad, but I can no more stop writing/playing than I can stop going to the toilet. In both cases, it's just something that comes out of me. That's not to say that I can't perform (although I'm sure it would say otherwise in the News of the Screws) or that I can't enjoy performing, just that it's got very little to do with why I play. Its simply a by-product. Although I don't enjoy it very much nowadays if I'm really honest.

[derrenleepoole]

[quote name='risingson' post='1370777' date='Sep 12 2011, 05:17 PM']You have every reason to invest in whatever bass you want, but I don't see the point if you're happy with what you've got. What I've learned in the 10 years playing is that the quest for gear is pretty futile, especially if you're happy with what you've got, regardless of price. This 'step' system of moving up a price-level as you progress as a player is misleading as it would suggest that the level of your progression should somehow dictate what instrument you play. The reality is that it doesn't matter, all manner of players play all kinds of gear.[/quote]

Like I said, its simply because I can and I'd like too. Its taken my twenty years to get to this time in my life when I can actually feasible afford to do it. And i agree, gear is only as good as the person using it. I'm thinking of the Maruszyczyk Elwood jbass as my next purchase. So it's a significant investment for me financially, but still very modest in terms of what you can pay for in certain circles.

The same arguements can be applied to a car purchase. My car is horrible. But, it does everything it needs to and more. So why bother upgrading? We all know the answer to that one. Because we can.

[4000]

[quote name='icastle' post='1370791' date='Sep 12 2011, 05:30 PM']I guess it kinda depends which angle you come at it from.
From a 'performer' point of view it seems totally odd to me, but from a 'non performer' point of view it probably doesn't seem too bad. [/quote]

I kind of look at it in the same vein as making models or painting. You might not care whether anyone sees the results (in fact in some cases you might prefer it if they didn't, for whatever reason) but that's no reason not to put everything into it. But then as you've probably guessed I'm rather fond of antisocial hobbies.

[redstriper]

[quote name='derrenleepoole' post='1370913' date='Sep 12 2011, 07:07 PM']I'm thinking of the Maruszyczyk Elwood jbass as my next purchase.[/quote]
Have you played one of these?
I like the idea of them with the chambered body and choice of scale whilst keeping the Fender vibe, but I'd be wary of buying without trying - is there a UK stockist?

Sorry to hi jack the thread - I'll get straight back to playing now

[Lozz196]

I like gear, and have spent lots of time, and money, in getting the gear I want. It`s been a very interesting journey as well. I`ve found "me, on bass" if that makes sense, through all the gear bought and sold.

I don`t necessarily believe that better gear will make a bad player suddenly sound good, but I do believe that if you put an easier to play bass, with more responsive pickups in the hands of an intermediate player, they should see/hear an improvement.

Just like the car analogy really, on Top Gear they put celebs in a reasonably priced car, and time them round a lap. Am sure all those celebs would be quicker in one of those 5.2 litre, 4-wheel drive Audis. Better equipment should coax better performance, providing the performer is capable of the better performance.

[risingson]

[quote name='derrenleepoole' post='1370913' date='Sep 12 2011, 07:07 PM']The same arguements can be applied to a car purchase. My car is horrible. But, it does everything it needs to and more. So why bother upgrading? We all know the answer to that one. Because we can.[/quote]

Absolutely man, in fact I made the same comparison in my first post. I do understand the desire to upgrade, and of course buying a new instrument is a shedload of fun too.

[quote name='dc2009' post='1370908' date='Sep 12 2011, 07:04 PM']She was a successful writer for many years before writing for herself. In my book, that makes her musically talented. If the Motown guys were 'talented' then they might have written songs that didn't all sound like each other, and I might actually like some of it. IMO they were boring musicians and producers and you'd have to pay me to listen to said dross.

As for standing the test of time, I can honestly say you're the first person I've encountered under 30 years of age who is a Motown fan, the lions share of Motown listeners are people who grew up with it. I'd argue it really hasn't stood the test of time, because so few young people these days choose to listen to it. As for saying preferences aside, it sounds brilliant, that really isn't preferences aside, as I think it sounds terrible. I can think of several people, in contrast, who put lady gaga on their playlist, and no Motown, and IMO, she sounds a lot better.

As for saying a million and one people could do what she does, so could all of the Motown writers be classed as the same. I'm sure plenty of people were skilled enough musicians, and would rather have been pro musos than factory workers or unemployed.

To draw it all together, those guys were using the best they had available to them, just as miss gaga does now. They were also both enormously popular in their own right, not caring too much because in the end, it's all going to sound very similar on that LP through that gramophone. I don't see anything wrong with using the best equipment available to you, or with writing music that you know will sell fantastically well, and be very popular.[/quote]

With the greatest of respect then, you can't have spoken to many people under the age of 30. I regularly play cover gigs at bars catering almost exclusively for those under 30 where we play out the likes of Marvin Gaye, The Four Tops, The Temptations, The Supremes, Smokey Robinson etc. etc. and response is always the same: favourable. People singing along word for word, people specifically coming and asking me for more Motown. The popularity has undeniably been carried down to my age group, I can account for it on multiple fronts.

And of course the sound has stood the test of time, you only need to listen to Adele or Cee Lo Green's latest release to see how far reaching Motown's influence has been. 50 years on! That's insane longevity. Unparalleled in many respects.

There's nothing notable about Lady Gaga in a musical sense. She relies on her quirkiness as the thing that identifies her (not a criticism, in fact a great way of marketing), but it doesn't make you musically talented or unique. You listen to Dusty Springfield or Aretha Franklin sing and you know who you're listening to in the first few bars. Total unbridled talent, whether it's your thing or not.

I don't expect we're going to come to any logical conclusions arguing on this subject, so apologies to stray from the OT.

[derrenleepoole]

Some further observations, from my point of view personally. I hope its relevant to the OP topic.

I like modding basses, it's like a hobby really. I do this exclusively on budget instruments to get a more pro like feel and tone. But, if we do the maths, a budget instrument upgraded to the max can be the equivalent to a sizeable deposit on a good quality instrument. So, am I kidding myself? I think I am to be honest.

The instrument I've seen and want is about £800. It fits my requirements and aesthetics perfectly. More so than trying to shoehorn bits into an instrument thats not really designed for the purpose. £800 is a lot of money for me, but quite modest compared to what you can spend. But, if I was prepared to upgrade my budget bass with potentially £300+ of new hardware, why not use that money and the money from the bass purchase to put it towards a better instrument to begin with?

Ultimately, it comes from the player irrespective of the instrument. But, the bass is a tool to get the job done, and good tools will often last longer and help make the job easier as well as more enjoyable.

A great thread

[Blademan_98]

I do like my basses. I have bought and sold several to get the ones I have now.

Because they feel right, I play them more.

I will probably keep on trying basses and if I find another that has a great feel, I will probably buy it and sell one of the others.

There is still plenty of practice and learning going on, but I am human and a bloke and fickle

[lowdown]

[quote name='risingson' post='1370724' date='Sep 12 2011, 04:46 PM']Gear is nice, but ultimately replaceable. Being a talented, skilled musician is indispensable. It's a no brainer as to which one is more important.[/quote]

+1

50 odd posts before this was mentioned...



Garry

[davey_one_visits]

[quote name='markstuk' post='1370808' date='Sep 12 2011, 05:49 PM']Hardly very clever to point out the contradiction in your post when you said that a) you have nice gear and -b- materialism is a bad thing. (Irony mode on) we all individually apparently have appropriate gear it's just the other clowns who have gear that is beyond their ability to appreciate, and they'd be better off spending their money on lessons, or new ears, self improvement/pleasuring or whatever.... (Irony mode off)..[/quote]

I get that owning an instrument is technically materialistic but that wasn't my point. I was just saying that the focus on buying rucks of expensive gear instead of self improvement etc isnt the way forward. Like I said though, each to their own.

[Merton]

Have only read the OP and none of the replies (no time!!) but I agree- give me any bass or amp and I'll sound the same. I have very much enjoyed my journey finding gear nirvana bit I bet if you A/B'd my tone now and 5 years ago there wouldn't be much difference... probably just I now have an amp which gives me that tone with very minimal EQ





Oh, btw, my sound is "sh*t bassist"

EDIT: as for the theory and practice, I did A Level music, lots of grade exams on bass, trombone, piano, French horn... Would like to think I know some stuff, however I'm well aware of my limitations and have many plans to study and fill those gaps in my knowledge/talent. Time however is very precious with a 2yr old son...

Edited September 12, 2011 by Merton

[Pete Academy]

I've noticed that beginners sometimes tend to keep buying and changing gear, in the hope that it will improve their playing, instead of just practising. This is a form of procrastination, which is a bit like a writer doing research on a subject instead of just getting down and writing.

Like many other players, I have a sound in my head that I want to achieve. I also love beautiful instruments. I'm the closest ever with my Roscoe, but I still think about whether or not a Ken Smith might get me a little closer. I think we're all like that.

I just want an instrument that looks good, feels comfortable (probably the most important factor). and gives me the sound in my head. It's a given that the sound we strive for will make us play better.

[Chris2112]

For me, the passion is about the instruments as well as the playing. I probably spend more time on my playing and craft than I do thinking about basses themselves but the equipment is an extremely important part of the equation and must not be overlooked.

[markstuk]

I don't think anyone is saying that expensive gear is a substitute for talent/practice/commitment/feel in reality - although that is the implication being lofted by the OP. What I don't get is why apparently we have to choose between the two options... What I do sense is a bunch of hypocrisy about "other" people being materialistic dillettantes who somehow are compensating for a lack of talent by buying gear beyond their ability to play it simply to impress other people - presumably bass players. But apparently your nice gear is entirely appropriate to your needs/ambitions...

We're mostly blokes, and mostly not luvvies who want, nay have to, emote about meaning and emotional content and the finer things of life. Blokes compensate by having stuff that implies all the emotional bollocks.. And gives us something to talk about.. Gear is simply the container that surrounds the subtext if I can be forgiven for mixing my metaphors..

Yes we can all improve more by working harder with the same stuff. We can also improve by feeling better about what we're playing and getting closer to "the tone/s". And surprise of surprises we can actually do both at the same time.. And I suspect 90% or more of the folk on here do both...


[quote name='davey_one_visits' post='1371030' date='Sep 12 2011, 08:23 PM']I get that owning an instrument is technically materialistic but that wasn't my point. I was just saying that the focus on buying rucks of expensive gear instead of self improvement etc isnt the way forward. Like I said though, each to their own.[/quote]

Edited September 12, 2011 by markstuk

[dc2009]

[quote name='risingson' post='1370959' date='Sep 12 2011, 07:33 PM']With the greatest of respect then, you can't have spoken to many people under the age of 30. I regularly play cover gigs at bars catering almost exclusively for those under 30 where we play out the likes of Marvin Gaye, The Four Tops, The Temptations, The Supremes, Smokey Robinson etc. etc. and response is always the same: favourable. People singing along word for word, people specifically coming and asking me for more Motown. The popularity has undeniably been carried down to my age group, I can account for it on multiple fronts.

And of course the sound has stood the test of time, you only need to listen to Adele or Cee Lo Green's latest release to see how far reaching Motown's influence has been. 50 years on! That's insane longevity. Unparalleled in many respects.

There's nothing notable about Lady Gaga in a musical sense. She relies on her quirkiness as the thing that identifies her (not a criticism, in fact a great way of marketing), but it doesn't make you musically talented or unique. You listen to Dusty Springfield or Aretha Franklin sing and you know who you're listening to in the first few bars. Total unbridled talent, whether it's your thing or not.

I don't expect we're going to come to any logical conclusions arguing on this subject, so apologies to stray from the OT.[/quote]

I'm at university in London, active in a department and sporting sense, and work in a student bar, I can safely say I know hundreds of people under 30 (being 20 myself).

IMO a sound standing the test of time and a present day artist taking influence from an old sound are not the same thing.

I dare say I could pick out a Gaga song in the first few bars, and wouldn't be able to tell Dusty Springfield or Aretha Franklin apart if I heard the two alongside each other.

I agree that we won't come to any conclusion, but I've read all your posts with great interest so apologies about the thread hijack too!

[BigRedX]

[quote name='risingson' post='1370724' date='Sep 12 2011, 04:46 PM']Gear is nice, but ultimately replaceable. Being a talented, skilled musician is indispensable. It's a no brainer as to which one is more important.[/quote]
[quote name='lowdown' post='1371024' date='Sep 12 2011, 08:18 PM']+1

50 odd posts before this was mentioned... [/quote]
I would say that being a talented and skilled composer/writer is far more important. If you don't have any good music to play then it doesn't matter how fantastic your gear or technique is.

[mcgraham]

I think that enjoying making music you love is the goal and reward, and that can totally encompass having and looking for gear you enjoy using, or exploring/changing around your gear to try different things and keep it fresh.

Personally I want to do the above, but I also love learning about gear and how to use it. I read lots, buy on occasion, and keep an ear to the ground for new bits that I might like. It's a recursive process too, as things I reeeally like I keep and it affects my progress and enjoyment as a player.

[risingson]

[quote name='BigRedX' post='1371150' date='Sep 12 2011, 09:54 PM']I would say that being a talented and skilled composer/writer is far more important. If you don't have any good music to play then it doesn't matter how fantastic your gear or technique is.[/quote]

I include composition under the same banner when talking about musicianship.

[FlatEric]

[quote name='Chris2112' post='1371062' date='Sep 12 2011, 08:52 PM']For me, the passion is about the instruments as well as the playing. I probably spend more time on my playing and craft than I do thinking about basses themselves but the equipment is an extremely important part of the equation and must not be overlooked.[/quote]

A very interesting OP - can't find any comment from the original OP but may have missed it.

I am guilty of being a "Collector" but one thing it has taught me over many years is. . . . .
$£$£$£$£ does not always equal the sound or feel you are looking for.

I DO play mine, on as regular basis as I can and none of them make me a better player but
one thing is for sure, for most of the time, a different bass will make me want to move in the
direction it leads me.

A J or a P, I go mostly all "trad", a fretless and I wander off in another direction, something cheap
that "sings" perhaps makes me smile the most, something rare or unique makes me want to stretch
myself - to justify it's existance in the collction.
I have bought many things just for "Me" to make up my own mind, what "I" think of it.

I don't play golf but I know many people who do and are always chasing the next bit of kit.

I know that another addition to the collection WILL NOT make me a better player but if it's any
good, it will stay for a while and I will enjoy the experience.

Very few people go to the Same Pub, or the Same Resturaunt, or the Same Attraction, or the
Same Film, over and over and over again, they feel like a change.

I am fortunate enough to reach out for anything I fancy at the time but always get a warm glow
when I see a young , talented player on an Encore P, a Sue Ryder or Woolies Special, knocking
Nine Bells out of the thing and my eyes are glued to the board and my ears are straining to
pick up all he or she does.

I love all the gear I have got.
It could be Fishing Kit, Golf Clubs, Orchids, China, Silver or Art - for me it is Guitars and Bass.

If I hit hard times, I could drop it to ONE, well maybe TWO, or Perhaps Three . . . . . .

No, joking aside - being left with only one, with a half decent sound, feel and playability, would
keep me going.


That is my take on it.

Cheers.

[Spike Vincent]

I'd rather talk about gear than talk about scales.

[Mog]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1370466' date='Sep 12 2011, 02:17 PM']I've noticed a couple of posts lately which,to me,give the impression that [color="#4169E1"]there are some
people who feel that gear is an important part of improvement as a player [/color]or more
important than the player themselves. It's not just limited to this site or bass players in
general...I've seen it with a lot of drummers and guitar players too.

I love gear as much as anyone but I feel that the gear is somewhat secondary to the
player and that everyone would benefit so much more from spending money and time
on lessons and practice rather than spending thousands on gear.

I understand that some people are collectors of instruments but I'm guessing that the
vast majority of people on here are more than that.[/quote]

I think its really a NOOB thing, I sure as hell was like that when I started out playing guitar. I went from a ~£60 piece of crap to a £300 Takamine to a £2000+ Ramirez in the space of 3 years. And while the Ramirez was more comfortable to play higher grade pieces on the Tak would have done the same job to a degree where only people as anal as myself would notice. Now I can play the same passages on that piece of crap and make it sound relatively ok. That ability only came with time. Would that £2000 have been a better investment if I used it for lessons? Probably, but I know for a fact that I was more dedicated to improving as a guitarist after I purchased the Ramirez.

I suppose what I'm saying is that I do think higher quality instruments can be an aid when learning. The problem is, IMO, that people cant tell the difference between high quality and high cost and gear snobbery definitely plays a part also.
Most of us here have probably toyed with the idea of picking up a Tanglewood/Overwater but would rather play a plank strunk with cheesewire than a Tanglewood Rebel.
Which would be a better bass to learn on? Both to a degree are equal but the TangleWater is probably a far superior instrument in terms of playability. Its balanced and well constructed. A good 45 minutes of scale work on it would be far less taxing than on the Rebel which in turn would lead to a less stressfull learning experience.

You can only get to a high standard by practicing, be it hours spent with a metronome and scores or hours spent in the company of other talented musicians, and IMO struggling with your guitar/bass/keys etc during whichever practice method you choose will limit what you can learn.

[icastle]

[quote name='Johnston' post='1370860' date='Sep 12 2011, 06:33 PM']OI I would resemble that comment [/quote]

Nah - your missus told me you weren't allowed to play in the bedroom anymore...

Damn.
Wrong forum again...

[icastle]

[quote name='4000' post='1370923' date='Sep 12 2011, 07:13 PM']I kind of look at it in the same vein as making models or painting. You might not care whether anyone sees the results (in fact in some cases you might prefer it if they didn't, for whatever reason) but that's no reason not to put everything into it. But then as you've probably guessed I'm rather fond of antisocial hobbies. [/quote]

LMAO

[chardbass]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='1370769' date='Sep 12 2011, 05:09 PM']That's not to say self-improvement isn't happening. It's just that, to most people, talking about gear is more fun.[/quote]

+1 What WOT said

I think the OP is referring to those who are constantly pissing around with gear- I know a guitarist like this but in fairness he also practises a lot.
It's just the quest for THAT sound that is madness.
What was it Marcus Miller said...?.. pauses to Google... oh well, something about people getting "too hung up on gear. Just find something that works and concentrate on your playing" (then he works on a signature bass!!!)

I love my bass- it records great and sounds huge live (thus fulfilling the MM deal) but as I am the wrong side of 40 I can't help but think that I deserve a pop at the Fodera Emperor in the For Sale section- sort of a "Bucket List" bass :-)

[janmaat]

I actually believe quality / hi fi instruments make crap players sound more crap. That in turn might make you improve your playing

Forgot who it was, but some guy was interviewed after a gig and the reporter said "your bass sounds great", and the guy just looked at the bass, put his hand to his ear and said: "yes indeed, it sounds great doesn't it?" - fact is, no instrument sounds by itself.

Being sort of a mathematician i'd put it in a formula, and if the "sound" (whatever that is) is a product of player and instrument, then you have to maximise both values to achieve the best result obviously.

Fact is also that what sounds great here might not sound great there - I play very differently when practising alone and in a band context; so chances are that what does the job perfectly for when you play alone, will be less than perf in a band setting. Many times, I find flush gear great at home but sort of prefer simpler and fuller sounding stuff in band settings. So I understand why great hi-fi stuff gives people pleasure and makes them practise more (at home). But a banged-up session instrument in the right place in the mix, and [i]played,[/i] is priceless.