Learning the intervals of chords

[thisnameistaken]

Yeah really embarrassing, but there are massive holes in my knowledge and I'm looking for the best ways to fill them. Starting with this!

I'm alright finding the root of a chord anywhere on the neck, although I could get better, but my main problem is I don't know what the intervals in each chord are. As in, I don't know that Eb is the 3rd in Bmaj. Or if I do, I can't think of it very quickly.

Any tips for practising towards this knowledge?

[Blademan_98]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='1374894' date='Sep 15 2011, 09:33 PM']Any tips for practising towards this knowledge?[/quote]

I'm not brilliant at this but I have learned the steps (see pictures) and practice from each root.

Say the notes as you play them.

It's better than learning just patterns (which is what I did first).

Edit: 1 = Major / 2 = Minor (Natural)

Edited September 15, 2011 by Blademan_98

[essexbasscat]

A slightly left field solution for this one is to learn (to performance standard) a number of pieces in the same key, on an wind instrument, such as the trombone ?
This approach eliminates the issue of playing by position on a bass fretboard. Also, thinking about pitching the note to hit it accurately with a wind instrument involves some understanding of the scale interval to get there from the note you've just played.

This approach usually does involve the reading of musical scores however.........

Learn pieces in the key of C to begin with, then one flat, one sharp etc and analysing each scale as you go.

This may be a long winded (!) approach, but the reward will be the accrued depth of understanding.

[thisnameistaken]

I'm fine with anticipating intervals my ear is pretty good, I can follow common changes like turnarounds and stuff just by ear but more often than not I don't know the names of the notes I'm playing.

Also I'm a terrible trombonist and the instrument itself would be a big distraction I think. Although my girlfriend is planning to take up the trumpet so maybe that will give me more opportunity to practice.

[Blademan_98]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='1375272' date='Sep 16 2011, 10:49 AM']I'm fine with anticipating intervals my ear is pretty good, I can follow common changes like turnarounds and stuff just by ear but more often than not [b]I don't know the names of the notes I'm playing[/b]. [/quote]

That's the problem with most of us!

I have spent the last few months concentrating on learning the notes on the fret board.

It has helped expand my knowledge

Unfortunately my timing has suffered so I am practicing the note finding with a metronome

[essexbasscat]

Q+A sessions with the girlfriend going through the key signiatures naming the notes of the intervals ?

i.e. tonic to 5th in key of three flats, third to sixth in same key, taking it one scale at a time.

[Bilbo]

Learn the scales first, then the intervals will make sense.

[thisnameistaken]

Bilbo do you mean learn the notes (names) of each scale rather than concentrating on learning the names of notes in triads first? I guess knowing all the intervals would be more useful but it also seems like a much more challenging thing to do, which is why I was going to start with 1-3-5s.

[Coilte]

This is a great all round site for bass. It deals with intervals here :

[url="http://www.studybass.com/lessons/intervals/basic-intervals/"]http://www.studybass.com/lessons/intervals/basic-intervals/[/url]

[xilddx]

TNiT, what led you to identify this need?

[JakeBrownBass]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='1375347' date='Sep 16 2011, 11:53 AM']Bilbo do you mean learn the notes (names) of each scale rather than concentrating on learning the names of notes in triads first? I guess knowing all the intervals would be more useful but it also seems like a much more challenging thing to do, which is why I was going to start with 1-3-5s.[/quote]

Have a look at Jerry Cokers - Patterns for Jazz.

It starts off with simple 1-3-5-(8) exercises in all keys.
Then through the book it moves on to the more 'exotic' chords.

There is years if not decades of practice material in that single book. It will come.

Jake

[Doddy]

I kind of agree with Bilbo about learning the scales although I find chord tones to be more
important,especially as a bass player.
It's easy enough to learn the notes in the triads,even if it's by playing a familiar shape (which I'm
guessing you can do) and pausing to identify the notes being played. The downside of this is it
is easy to make mistakes-for example the 3rd of B major is D# not Eb. This is where knowing the
whole scale helps as you can see how the scale degrees work.In this example a B major scale
would be B,C#,D#,E,F#,G#,A#,so the arpeggio would be B,D#,F# (1,3,5)

Try starting with a C major scale/arpeggio and then move through the circle of fifths-G major(1#),
D major(2#),A major(3#) etc.

[Bilbo]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='1375347' date='Sep 16 2011, 11:53 AM']Bilbo do you mean learn the notes (names) of each scale rather than concentrating on learning the names of notes in triads first? I guess knowing all the intervals would be more useful but it also seems like a much more challenging thing to do, which is why I was going to start with 1-3-5s.[/quote]

Its called a third for a reason. If you know the scale, you know the reason why a 3rd is a 3rd and a 5th id a 5th etc. and it all makes more sense. I can't see why you would want to do it the other way around. Whilst I can't argue with the importance of chord tones, I do think that their usage is dependant on the notes in between them and there aren't many hip lines that rely soley on chord tones. No, I say learn the scales first.

[BottomE]

As a recent theory convert i would say learn as much as you can - scales, triads, chords, intervals etc. In terms of an order in which to do this i would go...

Scales
Intervals
Triads
Chord Tones

It sounds like a lot and it is but its not difficult, its mainly repitition and its all related.
On the upside the benefits to your playing will be huge and quite quickly you will be more fluid and have many more options when creating basslines.

[fatback]

At the risk of being shot down, I'm not sure learning the names of chord tones by rote is any use whatsoever. Learning the intervals is far more important.

If you know your scale intervals and you know how to make those intervals on your bass, you'll hit the right notes for any chord. If it takes you a minute to think of the name of the note, so what.

If you keep practicing scales all over the fretboard, you'll get the names of notes eventually anyhow.

I found the single most important bit of learning I ever did was to study how scales worked. As I think Bilbo said, everything follows from there.

[Doddy]

[quote name='fatback' post='1375585' date='Sep 16 2011, 02:38 PM']At the risk of being shot down, I'm not sure learning the names of chord tones by rote is any use whatsoever. Learning the intervals is far more important.

If you know your scale intervals and you know how to make those intervals on your bass, you'll hit the right notes for any chord. If it takes you a minute to think of the name of the note, so what.

If you keep practicing scales all over the fretboard, you'll get the names of notes eventually anyhow.

I found the single most important bit of learning I ever did was to study how scales worked. As I think Bilbo said, everything follows from there.[/quote]
My reasoning for actually learning the notes instead of just the intervals and how to make them on the bass,is that
it becomes very easy to play the intervals via patterns and shapes and with no understanding of what you are actually
playing. It's the same with just blindly playing scales-it's very easy to just play a generic fingering pattern. If you know
what notes are used to construct the scales and chords you will have the entire fingerboard at your disposal and won't
be locked into playing in position.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='1375347' date='Sep 16 2011, 11:53 AM']Bilbo do you mean learn the notes (names) of each scale rather than concentrating on learning the names of notes in triads first? I guess knowing all the intervals would be more useful but it also seems like a much more challenging thing to do, which is why I was going to start with 1-3-5s.[/quote]

Thing is there is a "logic" to the major scales notes when you understand how the circle of fiths work ...

Gb Db Ab Eb Bb F <- C -> G D A E B F#

Starting at C if you go right each step adds one more sharp note, if you go left you add one more flat note for each step.

Its probably easier to grasp if you look at the classic circular depiction
[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Circle_of_fifths_deluxe_4.svg"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Circle_o...hs_deluxe_4.svg[/url]

Theres also a pattern to the shaps and flats that get added but I'll leave you to work that one out

As a memory aid to the circle of fiths youl notice that it contains the pattern "BEADG" backwards on both sides which just happends (by no accident) to be the open string notes on the bass

Edited September 16, 2011 by bassman7755

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1375450' date='Sep 16 2011, 01:13 PM']Its called a third for a reason. If you know the scale, you know the reason why a 3rd is a 3rd and a 5th id a 5th etc. and it all makes more sense. I can't see why you would want to do it the other way around. Whilst I can't argue with the importance of chord tones, I do think that their usage is dependant on the notes in between them and there aren't many hip lines that rely soley on chord tones. No, I say learn the scales first.[/quote]

I suppose I just thought learning the most common tones first would be a good 'in'. Maybe not. As Doddy points out it could mean I'm calling notes by the wrong names in some contexts if I'm not careful. And while that wouldn't be a massive deal for me in the situations I play in, I wouldn't want to get into a bad habit like that.

So is there no better method for learning this stuff than practising scales and voicing the note names at the same time? That just sounds like the kind of exercise that would get very boring very quickly.

[quote name='silddx' post='1375391' date='Sep 16 2011, 12:26 PM']TNiT, what led you to identify this need?[/quote]

Mostly from playing bass.

Busking, especially tunes I haven't rehearsed much / at all. Trying to learn to improvise walking style bass lines. Working on original songs with a band and trying to communicate with brass players, etc. Lots of situations, but it's particularly come to the fore because I'm now playing types of music I hadn't played much before, since I started playing double bass.

[fatback]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1375597' date='Sep 16 2011, 02:50 PM']My reasoning for actually learning the notes instead of just the intervals and how to make them on the bass,is that
it becomes very easy to play the intervals via patterns and shapes and with no understanding of what you are actually
playing. It's the same with just blindly playing scales-it's very easy to just play a generic fingering pattern. If you know
what notes are used to construct the scales and chords you will have the entire fingerboard at your disposal and won't
be locked into playing in position.[/quote]

I take the point, Doddy.

Mind you, if you are hearing intervals you're not just playing patterns (even though you're playing patterns ) are you?

Perhaps making sure you play your scales and arpeggios in many different positions and all over the board would reduce the risk of getting mechanical about it.

I have to admit I have zero chance of learning the names of all the notes i all the chords of all the degrees by any route other than slow osmosis. I mean if i play the same scale over a week, I get it. But that's just one scale .

Don't you think that hearing in your head what you want to play over a chord is the main thing? If patterns are connected to the pitches, then the names surely don't matter too much.

Oh, I don't know. Really.

[Doddy]

[quote name='fatback' post='1375793' date='Sep 16 2011, 05:57 PM']Don't you think that hearing in your head what you want to play over a chord is the main thing? If patterns are connected to the pitches, then the names surely don't matter too much.[/quote]

Hearing in your head is very important,but so is being able to take it and play it on the instrument. If it's a familiar pattern.that's fine-
everyone does it......but it's easy to fall into the trap of playing the same familiar licks all the time regardless of what you hear because
your hands fall into comfortable positions.
That's why I recommend practising scales and arpeggios over in over the whole instrument,from a single string up to inverted chords
over the whole fingerboard.It's a lot of work,and I know a lot of people don't care about it,but it really does improve your playing.

[ZMech]

[quote name='essexbasscat' post='1374957' date='Sep 15 2011, 10:24 PM']A slightly left field solution for this one is to learn (to performance standard) a number of pieces in the same key, on an wind instrument, such as the trombone ?[/quote]
not sure why you've picked trombone as the instrument, piano would seem like the logical choice to me, partly as it's more visual. In fact, I've been meaning to do this for a while, after stealing my dad's old keyboard. Just decided I shall start doing 20mins a day on keys from tomorrow, probably mostly scales to start with

Edited September 16, 2011 by ZMech

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='ZMech' post='1375873' date='Sep 16 2011, 07:29 PM']not sure why you've picked trombone as the instrument, piano would seem like the logical choice to me, partly as it's more visual.[/quote]

Presumably because I bought a trombone from him earlier this year. I have two of them, I'm just not very good.

[daz]

[quote name='Coilte' post='1375378' date='Sep 16 2011, 12:17 PM']This is a great all round site for bass. It deals with intervals here :

[url="http://www.studybass.com/lessons/intervals/basic-intervals/"]http://www.studybass.com/lessons/intervals/basic-intervals/[/url][/quote]

+ 1 on that Its a quality website for learning bass theory.

I learned my shapes from there very quickly, that was the easy part. Then you realise you need to know the neck, so that you can make it easier for yourself to get around quicker

ie: on a C minor triad maybe its easier for you to pick/pluck your flatted third E on the 6th fret of the A string rather than the 1st fret of the G string. and so on. There is no getting around knowing the neck really. It needs to be known so you can look at a fret and know straight away what note it is (not that I can yet. Its taking an annoyingly long time. )

The first five fretts may be the [i]"money makers" [/i]as victor Bailey's dad says. But you still need to know the rest, as he actually proved on stage as Manchester Bass day last year, by reciting fret and string numbers and naming the notes.

Edited September 16, 2011 by daz

[JTUK]

Depends how far you want to go with it..and how your left hand fingers the notes.

A simple start would be to arrange 4 fingers across 4 frets....and then play from any start point...but just to give it a reference, the 3rd fret on the E string.
Play finger-wise....
E st 2-4
A st 1-2-4
Dst 1-3-4

Across the 3 strings and you have a G major scale. You can transfer that to any other position on the neck and across 3 string you will always get a major scale determined by what root note you start on.
If you only just get the note of your start-of position, you still know the intervals of the major scale if you count the notes up the scale from the 1st note ..so your third note would be the major third, 4th=4th, 5th=5th...which is why they are so named as they are that number note within the scale.

This is why I would say Bilbao is right in saying learn the scales.

Once you have the fingering right, you can work out what notes you can flatten to get a minor scale, for example,

[thisnameistaken]

Nah I know all that stuff, it's the actual names of the notes I don't know, which means when I'm busking a tune I don't know I have to be very conservative about what I play because I can't be trusted to find a given interval for a given chord without first thinking of where the root note is and spotting the interval in relation to that.