What's a 'Vintage' Instrument????

[Rick's Fine '52]

OK, so what do we consider valid criteria to be called ‘vintage’?

Sure there’ll be lots of varied opinion on this. Please bear with me…..

Reason I ask, is that I’ve seen a few late 70’s Fender basses advertised recently as 'vintage', and I’ve never considered these to be 'vintage' instruments.

My guide has always been pre-CBS for Fender as being a real ‘vintage fender’, but then there’s Musicman Stingrays, I wouldn’t have an issue with someone describing a ’77 Ray, as vintage, because as far as Ray’s go, the pre-EB models are desirable, collectable etc, and because of the pre/post EB being easy to separate, its an easy line in the sand to draw.

Then there’s things like Alembics, an original ’77 Series One, again, could easily be described as a ‘vintage Alembic’, as they are still made, and it needs to be described differently to a new one. No problem there.

With Rickenbackers, I always take 60’s instruments as being vintage (Don’t know why, guess it’s a decade thing, easy to differentiate), so anything post 70, I wouldn’t class as vintage, which is unfair, and go’s against my own logic, which as shown above is not consistent just with the age, as the brand plays a big part.

Does this mean that a first month Japanese JV Jazz Bass, like one I have, can now be considered ‘vintage’, surely not?, but if an ’82 pre-EB Ray is, then why not??

Having written this, I’ve maybe answered my own question, and I think my personal definition of ‘vintage’ is based on [i]my[/i] own age, and [i]not[/i] that of the basses I refer to. For example, I still consider a Jaydee Supernatural to be a ‘new’ bass, but an ’86 could probably, and justifiably, be described as ‘vintage’.

If I was 20 years old, I’d almost certainly consider a ’79 Precision to be ‘vintage’. I’m not, I’m 40, and to me a ‘vintage’ Fender, will always be a pre-CBS one, as for other makers, I think it’s very dependent on the brand/model etc.

I’m not for one minute suggesting any of the above is ‘right’, they are just my thoughts, and as basschat will have a variety of readers/contributors from teens to OAP’s, I thought I’d ask the question, to see, as I think is the case with me, its more a matter of the persons age, and not that of the instrument.

Could be very interesting to see the responses, and to help analyze those responses (If any?), it would be helpful if anyone showing an opinion could state their age (C’mon don’t be shy!), to see if there’s a pattern.

Perhaps this is part of the sub-conscious healing process of me reaching 40!!

(Huge apologies if this has already been covered, I’m fairly new!)

Thanks for being patient in reading my rambling!

Thoughts/Opinions??

Rick

[Ou7shined]

Vintage is in the eye of the beholder.

[Jean-Luc Pickguard]

Anything over 25 years old is considered vintage.

[Sibob]

[quote name='Jean-Luc Pickguard' post='1375068' date='Sep 16 2011, 12:40 AM']Anything over 25 years old is considered vintage.[/quote]


This

Si

[Mylkinut]

[quote name='Jean-Luc Pickguard' post='1375068' date='Sep 16 2011, 12:40 AM']Anything over 25 years old is considered vintage.[/quote]

I always thought it was 30. However, I'm now the proud owner of two vintage basses. Chuffed.

[Clarky]

For no logical reason whatsoever, I have always thought of 1980 as the cutoff. hence '70s Fenders, Stingrays, Ricks etc are vintage in my view. But like said earlier, it's all in the eye of the beholder

[Lozz196]

[quote name='Jean-Luc Pickguard' post='1375068' date='Sep 16 2011, 12:40 AM']Anything over 25 years old is considered vintage.[/quote]

That was my understanding - which means my latest bass, a 1977 Fender Precision, is a vintage instrument. Yay!

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='Jean-Luc Pickguard' post='1375068' date='Sep 16 2011, 12:40 AM']Anything over 25 years old is considered vintage.[/quote]
Not this...

I would imagine that it depends on the age of the company producing the bass. 10 years back anything from the 80's would be 'vintage' and yet the basses would be potentially 20 year old... probably similar situation with the likes of Overwater etc. For me a vintage Fender is NOT going to be an 80's Fender!

[xgsjx]

I went into my local Majestic & vintage is anything pre 2010.


Here's a thought if vintage is over 25 years, in @ 2 1/2 years my Ibanez SR1000 which I bought new will be vintage! Hooda thortit?

[Mykesbass]

Interesting question, and your thoughts about it being different for different brands could be correct, as looking at definitions of vintage it has more to do with quality than age. Therefore, any period of manufacture which is generally accepted as being good could be vintage wheras 70's Fenders never should be described as such Also can be used as noun or adjective, so according to this site, 2011 was a vintage year for Sue Ryder Basses!

[Clarky]

[quote name='Mykesbass' date='Sep 16 2011, 08:29 AM' post='1375139']
any period of manufacture which is generally accepted as being good could be vintage wheras 70's Fenders never should be described as such [quote]

Oi! There are some wonderful '70s Fenders - early '70s Precisions are as good as any '60s Precisions IMHO (having owned both) and although their QC became more variable post mid-70s there were still some cracking basses in the latter half of the '70s

[Doctor J]

Vintage is a term used to try to squeeze more money out of a prospective buyer on the basis of age and exclusivity magically making something seem better than it actually is

In practical terms, I think there's a 30 year timeline where the price and desriability of instruments suddenly increases, certainly it looks like early 80's Fenders have come in from the cold, even late 70's and early 80's Japanese stuff are appreciating rapidly too.

Personally, I think there might be a link to the age of the buyer, where having disposable income and a large dose of nostalgia makes owning an instrument older than you are a cool thing.

[LemonCello]

I guess there is also the consideration that Vintage does not necessarily mean 'good'. As we all know there are some shocking examples of '70's Fender basses but some pearls too.

I've just aquired a late 70's Precision from Bass Direct which is definately a player. I knew this because I spent a good deal of time with Mark playing the thing and comparing it with others.

This is a great forum and I'm really happy to be a member and grateful for all the help and knowledge sharing. The thought of parting with say £2,000 for an instrument without playing it first is a bridge too far for me.

'Vintage' - what's in a word?

LC

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='Clarky' post='1375100' date='Sep 16 2011, 06:54 AM']For no logical reason whatsoever, I have always thought of 1980 as the cutoff. hence '70s Fenders, Stingrays, Ricks etc are vintage in my view. But like said earlier, it's all in the eye of the beholder[/quote]

It's 1980 for me too, but I wonder if that's an indication of our age. I would imagine older players might draw the line at 1970, and younger players might see 1990 as the fairly close to the beginning of time, when only dinosaurs and Dinosaur Jr roamed the earth.

[Rick's Fine '52]

[quote name='LemonCello' post='1375155' date='Sep 16 2011, 08:50 AM']I guess there is also the consideration that Vintage does not necessarily mean 'good'. As we all know there are some shocking examples of '70's Fender basses but some pearls too.

I've just aquired a late 70's Precision from Bass Direct which is definately a player. I knew this because I spent a good deal of time with Mark playing the thing and comparing it with others.

This is a great forum and I'm really happy to be a member and grateful for all the help and knowledge sharing. The thought of parting with say £2,000 for an instrument without playing it first is a bridge too far for me.

'Vintage' - what's in a word?

LC[/quote]

Thanks for the comments so far guys, some interesting views. The surprising one for me so far is the reference to quality, which has been mentioned more than once. I'd never previously associated quality with the term 'vintage', to me it was always a 'time' related tag. For example, a late 50's Kay bass would definitely be a vintage instrument, although i'm sure they are poor quality, sound crap, and have little desirability, but thats just me.

A few people have commented on 70's Fenders being poor quality, and have to say, in my experience the mid to late 70's Fenders do tend to have some quality control issues, and they are certainly alot heavier, but there are, as with everything, some exceptions. I've played some excellent 70's Jazz basses for example, and a certain Mr. Miller, arguably one of the best players in the world (Not my cup of tea by the way, but certainly at the top of his chosen profession), has chosen a late 70's instrument as his weapon of choice, so not all bad. I've also seen late 50's Precisions that are dogs, twisted necks, low pickup response etc. As with anything, i wouldnt recommend anyone to pay any significant amount for a 'vintage' instrument without playing it first, that would just be plain silly.

Keep the opinions/thoughts coming.

Thanks, Rick.

[Lozz196]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='1375175' date='Sep 16 2011, 09:14 AM']It's 1980 for me too, but I wonder if that's an indication of our age. I would imagine older players might draw the line at 1970, and younger players might see 1990 as the fairly close to the beginning of time, when only dinosaurs and Dinosaur Jr roamed the earth.[/quote]

Reminds me of an episode of Hollyoaks that I saw - one of the characters was talking about "The Olden days, you know, the 70s".

But I suppose to someone born in the late 80s/early nineties, the 70s were part of long-ago history, which makes me feel rather old

[Dave Vader]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='1375175' date='Sep 16 2011, 09:14 AM']younger players might see 1990 as the fairly close to the beginning of time, when only dinosaurs and Dinosaur Jr roamed the earth.[/quote]



Oh very good...

[daz]

In the car and motorbike world;

A 'Classic car' is anything pre 1973.
A 'Vintage car' is anything pre 1930
(and 'Veteran' is pre 1914)

So if we [i]losely[/i] apply this to the guitar world (or any instrument) Then, using those years, but with different classes I would say the [b]1973[/b] cut off point might be a valid place for the .Vintage class.

So lets say from now [size=4][font="Verdana"] 'A [i]vintage bass [/i]is anything pre 1973'[/font][/size].

[Daz has spoken. Let it be thus. Report anyone to me who says differently and I will fine them (im saving for an EAD cab, so I need the money ]

Edited September 16, 2011 by daz

[BigRedX]

Unlike cars where the term "vintage" covers a specific time frame (1919 - 1930) there is no strict definition of vintage when it comes to (modern) musical instruments.

The general dictionary definition of "vintage" ties it up with quality, but when it comes to musical instruments and especially mass-produced ones that becomes entirely subjective.

For me there are only two kinds of musical instruments - ones I like and ones I don't. Age and the name on the headstock have little to do with either category, I take each instrument on it's individual merits (or lack of them).

[neepheid]

Vintage? An ill defined term used by people to pump up the prices of items based upon mythical, intangible, time bestowed properties.

I think it's to do with the distribution of Fairy Dust. People who set a firm time where "Vintage" stops assume that Fairy Dust stopped falling on basses at that time. People who apply an age to "Vintage" assume that Fairy Dust falls on basses at a constant rate.

The corollary to that is that Leo Fender was God's sole appointed sprinkler of Fairy Dust on basses. This is because it's only products of companies he's been involved with that seem to have this pre-(whatever company bought the place and RUINED EVERYTHING) nomenclature applied to them.

[Hutton]

[quote name='neepheid' post='1375260' date='Sep 16 2011, 10:33 AM']Vintage? An ill defined term used by people to pump up the prices of items based upon mythical, intangible, time bestowed properties.

I think it's to do with the distribution of Fairy Dust. People who set a firm time where "Vintage" stops assume that Fairy Dust stopped falling on basses at that time. People who apply an age to "Vintage" assume that Fairy Dust falls on basses at a constant rate.

The corollary to that is that Leo Fender was God's sole appointed sprinkler of Fairy Dust on basses. This is because it's only products of companies he's been involved with that seem to have this pre-(whatever company bought the place and RUINED EVERYTHING) nomenclature applied to them.[/quote]

You've hit the nail on the head with this post Matt. A bass is a bass is a bass! I would rather have a brand new Fender Precision than some so-called 'vintage' instruments. The term vintage does not confer playability on an instrument. Yet the term is used to hike prices to silly levels. I have a 1984 Precision which is an excellent bass. If I was to sell it then I can expect to pocket about £400 - £500 less than a late 70s Precision. Why?- because the 70s seems to confer magic on Fenders. I have yet to play a late 70s bass that I though was better than my 84. Plus they have all been heavier. I remember the 70s - there were more bad Fenders than good ones. Also, some 'vintage' instruments are knackered yet still command high prices. I would be happy if the term vintage was simply dropped. After all this thread alone has shown that the term is not easy to define. Let's just treat each bass as we find it!

[Doctor J]

[quote name='Hutton' post='1375277' date='Sep 16 2011, 10:54 AM']I have a 1984 Precision which is an excellent bass. If I was to sell it then I can expect to pocket about £400 - £500 less than a late 70s Precision. Why?[/quote]
You just need to wait three years until it becomes a good bass

[Rick's Fine '52]

[quote name='Hutton' post='1375277' date='Sep 16 2011, 10:54 AM']You've hit the nail on the head with this post Matt. A bass is a bass is a bass! I would rather have a brand new Fender Precision than some so-called 'vintage' instruments. The term vintage does not confer playability on an instrument. Yet the term is used to hike prices to silly levels. I have a 1984 Precision which is an excellent bass. If I was to sell it then I can expect to pocket about £400 - £500 less than a late 70s Precision. Why?- because the 70s seems to confer magic on Fenders. I have yet to play a late 70s bass that I though was better than my 84. Plus they have all been heavier. I remember the 70s - there were more bad Fenders than good ones. Also, some 'vintage' instruments are knackered yet still command high prices. I would be happy if the term vintage was simply dropped. After all this thread alone has shown that the term is not easy to define. Let's just treat each bass as we find it![/quote]

I think this post has been hijacked a little, and has turned into a "basses i like vs basses i don't is the important thing", which i completely agree with. I don't think anyone would suggest otherwise.


The post is to ask people what they consider to be a 'vintage' instrument, simple as that. The issues on whether vintage instruments are worth the money is an entirely different argument, one that has been debated at length on this forum alone. The market price of anything is based on demand. the whole fairy dust thing is lost on me. a good bass is a good bass if it was made in 1951 or 2011. Fenders are always considered more collectable because they reach a wider audience. I would imagine an Alembic Stanley Clarke, on paper, is a better bass than a fender precsion. But if you advertised them both, the people genuinly interetsed in an Alembic would be far less than those interested in a vintage fender for the same price, thats just the reality.

Did/do fender make great basses, yes, did/do they make firewood, yes.

Anyway, back to the subject, looks like it's '73 then.

[Rick's Fine '52]

[quote]Reminds me of an episode of Hollyoaks that I saw - one of the characters was talking about "The Olden days, you know, the 70s".

But I suppose to someone born in the late 80s/early nineties, the 70s were part of long-ago history, which makes me feel rather old [/quote]

Exactly, thats my point, i think its as much to do with the persons age as the instrument.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='Ou7shined' post='1375067' date='Sep 16 2011, 12:35 AM']Vintage is in the eye of the beholder. [/quote]

and in the eye of the seller . . .