What's a 'Vintage' Instrument????

[LastBass]

[quote name='Rick's Fine '52' post='1375522' date='Sep 16 2011, 01:52 PM']1937, surely this qualifies???

[attachment=89589:oldest_bass.jpg][/quote]

Hooray - something to save up for! Paul Tutmarc right? Learnt something today, thanks.

Edited September 16, 2011 by LastBass

[Rick's Fine '52]

[quote name='Hutton' post='1375555' date='Sep 16 2011, 02:11 PM']Maybe it all depends on whether you view guitars/basses as a collector or as a player.[/quote]

Don't think thats relevant, we're discussing the instruments age, not what its being used for, its about the actual item itself.

[Rick's Fine '52]

[quote name='LastBass' post='1375559' date='Sep 16 2011, 02:16 PM']Hooray - something to save up for! Paul Tutmarc right? Learnt something today, thanks.[/quote]

Tutmarc indeed, good work!

[muttley]

[quote name='alanbass1' post='1375547' date='Sep 16 2011, 02:05 PM']9. representing the high quality of a past time: vintage cars; vintage movies.[/quote]

This^. I don't think actual year is relevant at all, provided it is not in the too recent past. Instead, we should point to specific periods in a brand's existence: pre-CBS Fenders is one, Matsumoku-era Japanese instruments is perhaps another.

Any comparison with cars etc is invalid, IMO. Car technology and styling has changed significantly over the decades so each period in car manufacture is easily identifiable. OTOH, musical instrument technology is inherently static; an electric bass or guitar made today essentially looks and plays identical to one manufactured 60 years ago.

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='muttley' post='1375587' date='Sep 16 2011, 02:42 PM']Any comparison with cars etc is invalid, IMO.[/quote]
Damn.

There I was composing a theory which invalidated the wine / quality proposition; the crux being that overall quality has never been higher, therefore the Vintage period is now. Which - for the purposes of this thread - is plain silly.

And you've just convincingly knocked out the alternative approach.

How about an era-based system, like comic books. With a nod towards perceptions of quality, but also reflecting product development, corporate shifts and other indefinable stuff:

Pre 1950: Dark Age

1950-1960: Golden Age

1960-1970: Silver Age

1970-1990: Bronze Age

1990-Date: Modern Age

Edited September 16, 2011 by skankdelvar

[chris_b]

Right or wrong, in my head vintage guitars and basses are pre 1970.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='skankdelvar' post='1375631' date='Sep 16 2011, 03:26 PM']There I was composing a theory which invalidated the wine / quality proposition; the crux being that overall quality has never been higher, therefore the Vintage period is now. Which - for the purposes of this thread - is plain silly.[/quote]
No I believe that your reasoning is entirely sound. The best basses are being made right now. And next year's basses will be even better.

Old basses are just that. Old basses.

[The Bass Doc]

'VINT' Cerf is regarded as one of the fathers of the internet. He was born in 1943 so accordingly the age of Vint is 68 years.

[KiOgon]

I've just been over to another forum I visit ocassionaly, for Airguns & I noticed their 'Vintage' sub forum is sub-headed - "Anything no longer in production"

So if we were to apply that theory = there are no vintage Precisions or Jazzes et al>

[Rick's Fine '52]

[quote name='BigRedX' post='1375639' date='Sep 16 2011, 03:32 PM']No I believe that your reasoning is entirely sound. The best basses are being made right now. And next year's basses will be even better.

Old basses are just that. Old basses.[/quote]

Now there's a debate all on its own.

Sweeping generalisation statement that in my experience isnt true at all. Theres some great old and new basses, but to say the best basses are being made now is just not true. Same can be said for anything. Yes, technology has improvedm, but workmanship, care, that attention to detail just isnt there on mass produced things these days, especially with guitars. Vintage sound is something that many crave, and will pay handsomly for, others despise it. We're all different, and have different ears, hands, emotions, sensations etc.

You obviously havent played a good, 'old' bass, or maybe it just doesnt suit your playing style/requirement. I havent played a 'new' Fender that comes close to some of my vintage ones, regarding sound, comfort of playing etc, comparing eggs with eggs of course.

[Rick's Fine '52]

[quote name='skankdelvar' post='1375631' date='Sep 16 2011, 03:26 PM']Damn.

There I was composing a theory which invalidated the wine / quality proposition; the crux being that overall quality has never been higher, therefore the Vintage period is now. Which - for the purposes of this thread - is plain silly.

And you've just convincingly knocked out the alternative approach.

How about an era-based system, like comic books. With a nod towards perceptions of quality, but also reflecting product development, corporate shifts and other indefinable stuff:

Pre 1950: Dark Age

1950-1960: Golden Age

1960-1970: Silver Age

1970-1990: Bronze Age

1990-Date: Modern Age[/quote]


Sounds reasonable to me.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Clarky' post='1375145' date='Sep 16 2011, 08:37 AM']Oi! There are some wonderful '70s Fenders - early '70s Precisions are as good as any '60s Precisions IMHO (having owned both) and although their QC became more variable post mid-70s there [b]were still some cracking basses in the latter half of the '70s[/b][/quote]

I have yet to see a 70s three bolt Fender for sale that didn't have a wonky neck pocket and the strings well out of alignment due to the neck being out of wack.

Have a look at any that come up for sale and you'll almost certainly find the G almost falling off the neck edge and the E half an inch in from the edge. That would piss me off so much I could never buy one. You can of course yank the neck back into place like the Fender reps used to do

[Clarky]

[quote name='silddx' post='1375702' date='Sep 16 2011, 04:38 PM']I have yet to see a 70s three bolt Fender for sale that didn't have a wonky neck pocket and the strings well out of alignment due to the neck being out of wack.

Have a look at any that come up for sale and you'll almost certainly find the G almost falling off the neck edge and the E half an inch in from the edge. That would piss me off so much I could never buy one. You can of course yank the neck back into place like the Fender reps used to do [/quote]
not like you to tar all with the same brush Nigel. I can only speak with reference to Precisions (which always had the four bolts as far a I am aware) but I have played some nice mid/late 70s ones and some horrible heavy badly-put-together ones too.

[Paul S]

For me the word 'vintage' is purely a measure of age not quality. I'd always assumed over 20yrs made something vintage, but wouldn't argue with 25.

[stingrayPete1977]

Tricky one for me, As Rick states in the OP there is a line in the sand for pre EB at 84' which I can't think of for any other main stream brand? I personally think 70's but then if an 82' like mine is identicle to a 79' what's the difference? As another car comparison two identicle MGBs made a day apart and yet only one is eligible for free 'Historic' (another word for us to get confused with) road tax. Yep I'm just as confused if not more now yet thankful to Leo for making the original Rays simple enough so EBMM could make obvious changes

[henry norton]

Well in car terms 'vintage' is a car made in the period from 1918 to 1945. Before 1918 it is called 'veteran' and after 1945 (or 1949 depending on who you ask), is called 'classic'. Classic officially applies to any car over 25 years old nowadays.

How this applies to collectable electric guitars? Fecked if I know........

[stingrayPete1977]

In the same way most classic car fans of a certain age feel everything with a roof, more than two seats and built after December 1969 is modern rubbish the guitar collecting world has largely got stuck somewhere between 1962 and 1973. Thankfully not everyone in both camps feels this way

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' post='1375740' date='Sep 16 2011, 05:05 PM']Tricky one for me, As Rick states in the OP there is a line in the sand for pre EB at 84' which I can't think of for any other main stream brand?[/quote]

Pre-CBS Fenders, Warwicks pre-'92 before they changed to more automation and factory processes, some guys even say the '80s G&Ls are considerably better than newer examples.

I find Ernie Ball sales in these forums to be amongst the most amusing for sellers justifying inflated asking prices. Despite being one of the most common bass guitars in the world it seems every one that comes up for sale is either vintage or rare; Only 5,000 were made in Puke Green Sparkle!

[Monckyman]

[quote name='Paul S' post='1375714' date='Sep 16 2011, 04:46 PM']For me the word 'vintage' is purely a measure of age not quality. I'd always assumed over 20yrs made something vintage, but wouldn't argue with 25.[/quote]

This.
Vintage is used to denote age, not quality.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='1375785' date='Sep 16 2011, 05:50 PM']Pre-CBS Fenders, Warwicks pre-'92 before they changed to more automation and factory processes, some guys even say the '80s G&Ls are considerably better than newer examples.

I find Ernie Ball sales in these forums to be amongst the most amusing for sellers justifying inflated asking prices. Despite being one of the most common bass guitars in the world it seems every one that comes up for sale is either vintage or rare; Only 5,000 were made in Puke Green Sparkle! [/quote]
Yes but the instruments stayed the same (Fender obviously being the worst culprit) unlike the Ray where the outline shape of the pickguard is the only thing the same between the different manufacturers. Pre and post EB are chalk and cheese with most parts being changed within a very short period of time after 84' and the left overs had all gone, some things for better some for worse.

[Rick's Fine '52]

[quote name='Paul S' post='1375714' date='Sep 16 2011, 04:46 PM']For me the word 'vintage' is purely a measure of age not quality. I'd always assumed over 20yrs made something vintage, but wouldn't argue with 25.[/quote]

Yes, i wouldn't associate it with quality at all, its definitely an age thing.

[Rick's Fine '52]

[quote name='Monckyman' post='1375802' date='Sep 16 2011, 06:11 PM']This.
Vintage is used to denote age, not quality.[/quote]

Indeed.

[Mr Fudge]

My '97 US standard Jazz is worth its weight in gold. I've tried everything from Sadowsky to Smallpox and they are not fit to lace the boots of her.

[Mr. Foxen]

Vintage = person selling has unrealistic price expectations.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='1376010' date='Sep 16 2011, 10:17 PM']Vintage = person selling has unrealistic price expectations.[/quote]
Or they are selling a vintage instrument.........