What's a 'Vintage' Instrument????

[daz]

[quote name='silddx' post='1375702' date='Sep 16 2011, 04:38 PM']I have yet to see a 70s three bolt Fender for sale that didn't have a wonky neck pocket and the strings well out of alignment due to the neck being out of wack.

Have a look at any that come up for sale and you'll almost certainly find the G almost falling off the neck edge and the E half an inch in from the edge. That would piss me off so much I could never buy one. You can of course yank the neck back into place like the Fender reps used to do [/quote]


Oh Fender reps would never do that would they?

Of course they would. But its the first I have heard of it How did this come about then. Do tell ?

[Rick's Fine '52]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' post='1376020' date='Sep 16 2011, 10:30 PM']Or they are selling a vintage instrument.........[/quote]

Exactly, things always, well, nearly always, sell for what the market says they are worth at that time. If a 'vintage' bass is worth £5k, and someone is selling it for £10k, by overmarketing the whole 'vintage' thing, it simply wont sell. Buyers who spend big money arent stupid, they generally know the market very well, and are shrewd with their purchases. Only when a partcularly scarce or unique item comes up for sale, and there are more than one serious person wanting it, does the price often get escalated, but generally this is not the case.

Those who say vintage is used as a false selling ploy to inflate prices are a bit misguided, I've never known this to be the case, or an instrument sold over its value because it said vintage in the description. People know what they are buying.

[stingrayPete1977]

Exactly Rick

[xilddx]

[quote name='daz' post='1376026' date='Sep 16 2011, 10:38 PM']Oh Fender reps would never do that would they?

Of course they would. But its the first I have heard of it How did this come about then. Do tell ?[/quote]
According to the book I have, an account by one of the Fender managers was that the discs for the three-bolt's micro-tilt mechanism regularly had the hole stamped off centre, so as a fix they would make the neck socket bigger with a hand router ("not most precise of tools") so the neck would have the micro-tilt adjuster hole in the right place, matching the hole in the neck plate. Often the necks would be misaligned leading to the strings being to one side of the fingerboard. The reps apparently would deliver the instruments to the dealers and misaligned necks would be yanked into alignment while the store managers had their backs turned. I've actually done this myself in a shop that sells old guitars and basses.

Have a look at the three bolt neck Fender Jazzes for sale at the moment. Common on the 3 bolt guitars too.

Edited September 16, 2011 by silddx

[noelk27]

My cello was made circa 1870. Seems it might be vintage. Then again, it might not. It's certainly antique, though. So, all things considered, I've found this thread quite an amusing read.

[Rick's Fine '52]

[quote name='noelk27' post='1376067' date='Sep 16 2011, 11:30 PM']My cello was made circa 1870. Seems it might be vintage. Then again, it might not. It's certainly antique, though. So, all things considered, I've found this thread quite an amusing read.[/quote]

It's all relative isnt it, hence my remark earlier about this being basschat, and not harpsicordchat.

[Hutton]

[quote name='Rick's Fine '52' post='1376032' date='Sep 16 2011, 10:47 PM']Exactly, things always, well, nearly always, sell for what the market says they are worth at that time. If a 'vintage' bass is worth £5k, and someone is selling it for £10k, by overmarketing the whole 'vintage' thing, it simply wont sell. Buyers who spend big money arent stupid, they generally know the market very well, and are shrewd with their purchases. Only when a partcularly scarce or unique item comes up for sale, and there are more than one serious person wanting it, does the price often get escalated, but generally this is not the case.

Those who say vintage is used as a false selling ploy to inflate prices are a bit misguided, I've never known this to be the case, or an instrument sold over its value because it said vintage in the description. People know what they are buying.[/quote]

Sorry. I don't agree that this is always the case. I think that many are wrongly impressed that an instrument will be better if it is so-called 'vintage'. They therefore pay a lot of money for something that isn't necessarily better than a new instrument. We have been conditioned by this whole, old instruments are fantastic crap, way of thinking. It verges on propaganda by those who would seek to sell at inflated prices just because of age.

I have taken a 'vintage' instrument and played it through an amp. I have then taken a much newer instrument only a couple or years old and played it through the same amp with the same settings. One bass was a pre CBS precision with the other being my AV 62 precision. Of course there were differences as no two basses are the same. Were the differences huge? No. I actually preferred the newer instrument. Ok, you may say that was only two instruments and therefore cannot be used as an argument. However, the 'vintage' instrument was selling at several thousand pounds more then the newer bass. Would I have bought the 'vintage' instrument. Yes I would have - if I had been a collector who had to have a precision of that era!

Old instruments are exactly what they say they are - old instruments. Call them vintage if you like. Just don't think that they should be worth what some poor souls pay for them.

[Doctor J]

For every ad you see, substitute "old" in for "vintage" and "wear" for "mojo" if it's there. Suddenly the ads don't seem so alluring, though possibly more grounded in the real world.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='Hutton' post='1376200' date='Sep 17 2011, 09:44 AM']One bass was a pre CBS precision with the other being my AV 62 precision. Of course there were differences as no two basses are the same. Were the differences huge? No. I actually preferred the newer instrument. Ok, you may say that was only two instruments and therefore cannot be used as an argument.[/quote]

This is missing the point for me though, You have already bought into the scene without realising to some extent, Why do they make a AV62? (and endless Ri models) Because they are not readily available as such.

Why have EBMM released the ClassicRay? Because some people (more than there are pre EB's to go round) want the older neck feel, the chunky body, the muted bridge, the good old 2 band EQ etc and the look of an older bass without having to hunt for a good pre EB and not be scared to use it. If there was no genuine market for the old items the market would wind itself down and Fender would have a bash at making a totally new bass, The fact they have not and if anything them and other companies are making a tidy sum making retro models suggests a very different story.

If I had found my old Ray in a shop for £600 with no idea of what it was it would still be the best Ray I have ever played so thats a bonus. The general rule as I see it is this and most proper collectors will tell you to only buy a bass you like personally ( I think Rick will agree?) rather than just for the words in the advert or its history (unless its Elvis's or something). If some folk want to get caught up in the wording thats their problem but if they then sell it on for twice as much a year later to the next mug why not? Also these for many people are an indulgence my 2002 is quite capable of doing what the old one does really but have I asked any of you lot to pay for it, no. Can I afford it, yes. Anyone wanting to sell me a nice 77 MM bass in rootbeer brown for the right money can call it whatever they like for me

Edited September 17, 2011 by stingrayPete1977

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Doctor J' post='1376216' date='Sep 17 2011, 10:05 AM']For every ad you see, substitute "old" in for "vintage" and "wear" for "mojo" if it's there. Suddenly the ads don't seem so alluring, though possibly more grounded in the real world.[/quote]
THIS.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='Hutton' post='1376200' date='Sep 17 2011, 09:44 AM']I think that many are wrongly impressed that an instrument will be better if it is so-called 'vintage'.[/quote]

How can anyone be 'wrongly impressed' by such subjective things? If they like it, they like it. I know some people will like an old instrument simply because it is old, much like some people like draughty old wonky houses, but the bottom line is that they like them, for whatever reason.


[quote name='Hutton' post='1376200' date='Sep 17 2011, 09:44 AM']Old instruments are exactly what they say they are - old instruments. Call them vintage if you like. Just don't think that they should be worth what some poor souls pay for them.[/quote]

But surely they are [u]only[/u] worth precisely what some 'poor soul' is willing to pay - for whatever reason. That's the very definition of their value.

[jezzaboy]

There was a guy on Gumtree up here selling a "vintage" Tanglewood P bass copy from 1983 for 150 pounds.


So 1983 is now vintage??

Jez

[Rick's Fine '52]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1316252824' post='1376246']
This is missing the point for me though, You have already bought into the scene without realising to some extent, Why do they make a AV62? (and endless Ri models) Because they are not readily available as such.

Why have EBMM released the ClassicRay? Because some people (more than there are pre EB's to go round) want the older neck feel, the chunky body, the muted bridge, the good old 2 band EQ etc and the look of an older bass without having to hunt for a good pre EB and not be scared to use it. If there was no genuine market for the old items the market would wind itself down and Fender would have a bash at making a totally new bass, The fact they have not and if anything them and other companies are making a tidy sum making retro models suggests a very different story.

If I had found my old Ray in a shop for £600 with no idea of what it was it would still be the best Ray I have ever played so thats a bonus. The general rule as I see it is this and most proper collectors will tell you to only buy a bass you like personally ( I think Rick will agree?) rather than just for the words in the advert or its history (unless its Elvis's or something). If some folk want to get caught up in the wording thats their problem but if they then sell it on for twice as much a year later to the next mug why not? Also these for many people are an indulgence my 2002 is quite capable of doing what the old one does really but have I asked any of you lot to pay for it, no. Can I afford it, yes. Anyone wanting to sell me a nice 77 MM bass in rootbeer brown for the right money can call it whatever they like for me
[/quote]

Exactly, you should only buy an instrument because you like it and want it for whatever reason. I collect 'vintage' basses, but i never enter the word 'vintage' into a search box, because it means nothing to me when looking for particular things. Other collectors are the same I'm sure. Its not about sellers trying to make something sound more desirable than it is, they are just describing an old guitar as 'vintage', which in this business, that is totally legitimate and acceptable, certainly to me.

The thread is about what we determine is the line (Not abouts whats better, or whether prices are reasonable), when tagging something as vintage, and from all the responses (Thanks everyone), it is now clear where that line is. Its 1973, or was it '83, actually it could be '92, OK, does it still have shrink wrap on the pickguard, and tissue paper still wrapped around all the strings?, No, then it must be 'vintage'!

[Donnyboy]

[quote name='jezzaboy' timestamp='1316258158' post='1376324']
There was a guy on Gumtree up here selling a "vintage" Tanglewood P bass copy from 1983 for 150 pounds.


So 1983 is now vintage??

Jez
[/quote]

If The early Squiers were" Japanese Vintage" versions of 1950's & 60's Fenders & started in 1982(?) does that make them Double Vintage?

[gareth]

[quote name='Hutton' timestamp='1316249072' post='1376200']
Sorry. I don't agree that this is always the case. I think that many are wrongly impressed that an instrument will be better if it is so-called 'vintage'. They therefore pay a lot of money for something that isn't necessarily better than a new instrument. We have been conditioned by this whole, old instruments are fantastic crap, way of thinking. It verges on propaganda by those who would seek to sell at inflated prices just because of age.

I have taken a 'vintage' instrument and played it through an amp. I have then taken a much newer instrument only a couple or years old and played it through the same amp with the same settings. One bass was a pre CBS precision with the other being my AV 62 precision. Of course there were differences as no two basses are the same. Were the differences huge? No. I actually preferred the newer instrument. Ok, you may say that was only two instruments and therefore cannot be used as an argument. However, the 'vintage' instrument was selling at several thousand pounds more then the newer bass. Would I have bought the 'vintage' instrument. Yes I would have - if I had been a collector who had to have a precision of that era!

Old instruments are exactly what they say they are - old instruments. Call them vintage if you like. Just don't think that they should be worth what some poor souls pay for them.
[/quote]


I have told this story before, but when i got back into playing bass about 10 years ago, a friend of mine bought me several precisions to try

There were several 60's and a vintage reissue.

The vintage reissue was vastly superior to the very tired 60's precisions in all respects and this is the bass i bought and still have - subsequently I realised that its a fullerton vintage reissue

[Rick's Fine '52]

[quote name='gareth' timestamp='1316359008' post='1376886']


I have told this story before, but when i got back into playing bass about 10 years ago, a friend of mine bought me several precisions to try

There were several 60's and a vintage reissue.

The vintage reissue was vastly superior to the very tired 60's precisions in all respects and this is the bass i bought and still have - subsequently I realised that its a fullerton vintage reissue
[/quote]


the '82/'83 fullerton reissues are definitely superior to the later AV's, as they changed personnel and parts in '84, and went progressively downhill from there.

Minor point though, this thread is about what year you consider 'vintage' to start, not about quality. There are many good reissues out there, are they better than a good original, in my opinion no, because out of the hundredes of reissues i've played, they have never been as good as an original, there [i]are[/i] bad originals out there though, but it depends entirely on the individual instrument.

[Rick's Fine '52]

[quote name='Donnyboy' timestamp='1316358156' post='1376871']

If The early Squiers were" Japanese Vintage" versions of 1950's & 60's Fenders & started in 1982(?) does that make them Double Vintage?
[/quote]

Ha, why not indeed, double vintage it is then, for '82 JV's.