g****r tube combo dummy load

[Tuco]

hi people

i know this isnt exactly bass related but i value the opinion of folks on here so here goes:

i own a laney vc15-110 15watt tube combo that has an 8-16ohm external speaker jack. when a speaker cab is hooked up here it disables the internal speaker. there is also an fx send and return and the send is also labelled as line out.
now what i want is the option to be able to record the g****r from the fx send/line out into my interface/DAW/cab simulation. im hoping if i connect a simple impedance matched dummy load box to the external speaker output jack i can achieve this in silence whilst still kranking things on the combo.....?
im hoping theres a builder out there in basschat land that would be able to knock something up for me.....?? even though im led to believe that this is a fairly simple undertaking,im in mortal terror of solder and wires!!

p.s im sure a lot of you will be thinking "why doesnt he just buy an sm57 and record it properly??" well : i do in the daytime! i just want to get this setup together so i can record scratch tracks late into the night (insomniac)
"why not use amp sims?" you all cry !!!
well : i do that too !! im just a man on a mission

thanks fellas

[mart]

I'm not greatly experienced with effects loops, but I'd have thought that if you took the line-out and plugged it into your computer, and didn't plug anything into the "return" socket, then no sound would come out of the speaker. If you've tried that and it doesn't work like that, then fair enough, but if not, I'd give it a go.

I did knock up a dummy load for my guitar amp, but I'd be wary of taking the responsibility for avoiding blowing up someone else's amp. But if nobody else bites, drop me a PM.

[Tuco]

[quote name='mart' post='1375906' date='Sep 16 2011, 08:27 PM']I'm not greatly experienced with effects loops, but I'd have thought that if you took the line-out and plugged it into your computer, and didn't plug anything into the "return" socket, then no sound would come out of the speaker. If you've tried that and it doesn't work like that, then fair enough, but if not, I'd give it a go.

I did knock up a dummy load for my guitar amp, but I'd be wary of taking the responsibility for avoiding blowing up someone else's amp. But if nobody else bites, drop me a PM.[/quote]
yeh i tried that m8 but sound was still coming thru`

[flyfisher]

If I'm understanding correctly, you want to replace the speaker with a dummy load so you can crank up the amp without annoying the neighbours and then record from the line out/effects send?

Thing is though, won't the line out/effects send signal be from somewhere [u]before[/u] the main amp? In which case cranking the amp won't make any difference to the recorded signal - dummy load or no dummy load.

I may be wrong about this but I'd want to do some test recordings from the line out/effects send socket at different amp volume settings before going to the trouble of making up a dummy load.

[ahpook]

a friend of mine built a dummy load box for his laney LC15R - it works a treat for silent recording, as i think he had the same problem as the OP

i could ask him if he'd like to build one for you

[Tuco]

[quote name='flyfisher' post='1375967' date='Sep 16 2011, 09:24 PM']If I'm understanding correctly, you want to replace the speaker with a dummy load so you can crank up the amp without annoying the neighbours and then record from the line out/effects send?

Thing is though, won't the line out/effects send signal be from somewhere [u]before[/u] the main amp? In which case cranking the amp won't make any difference to the recorded signal - dummy load or no dummy load.

I may be wrong about this but I'd want to do some test recordings from the line out/effects send socket at different amp volume settings before going to the trouble of making up a dummy load.[/quote]
thats a very good point.. im aware that this method wont utilise the power amp, as you said the line out IS before it.. hmmmmm seems like ive overlooked this "tiny" detail

thanks for your input (no pun intended)

[Tuco]

[quote name='ahpook' post='1375971' date='Sep 16 2011, 09:29 PM']a friend of mine built a dummy load box for his laney LC15R - it works a treat for silent recording, as i think he had the same problem as the OP

i could ask him if he'd like to build one for you[/quote]
yeh , you could certainly ask him , thanks

[BigRedX]

Your amp sound is made up of 4 components.

1. The preamp sound
2. The poweramp sound
3. The speaker sound
4. The room sound

Your suggested recording method using the effects send is only going to capture the first of these and in that case I would suggest that you are going to get better results using a software amp sim.

The room sound is probably the least important of these especially if your preferred "normal" method of recording is close-mic'ing with an SM57, so there's two ways to go that will allow you to capture the first three elements of your guitar sound.

Probably the best way is to build a speaker isolation cabinet and record this. Have a look at [url="http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/Dec02/articles/recordingguitars.asp"]this article in Sound-On-Sound[/url] for details on how to make one and how to use it. This will let you drive both the pre- and power amps hard and also capture the speaker break-up sound with the minimum of disturbance to others.

Alternatively have a look at speaker attenuators like [url="http://www.tedweber.com/atten.htm"]these from Weber[/url]. These will let you drive both amp stages and provide a line-level output derived from the speaker output. However they don't replicate the sound of your cab/speaker which can be a major component in guitar sounds so you'll need to add a speaker simulator in either hardware or software to this.

[Slipperydick]

[quote name='Tuco' post='1375955' date='Sep 16 2011, 09:12 PM']yeh i tried that m8 but sound was still coming thru` [/quote]

So just put a jack plug - with nothing connected to it into the FX return, that should remove the input to the output stage
( Yeah OK ) and no sound comes out.. Then use the FX send/line out to drive whatever you like.

Easy innit ? or did I misunderstan the question ? Bit early for me yet.

Edited September 17, 2011 by Slipperydick

[mart]

[quote name='Slipperydick' post='1376285' date='Sep 17 2011, 11:23 AM']So just put a jack plug - with nothing connected to it into the FX return, that should remove the input to the output stage
( Yeah OK ) and no sound comes out.. Then use the FX send/line out to drive whatever you like.

Easy innit ? or did I misunderstan the question ? Bit early for me yet.[/quote]
That's just what I was going to suggest. You could plug in a guitar cable, but I suspect you may get a bit of hum, so a jack plug on its own would be best (e.g. or something like a 6.35 - 3.5mm jack plug converter?)

BRX is right (of course!) about you only getting part of the sound if you record the pre-amp out, but you say you've got a cab sim, and I'd have thought that covers the two most important components. But at the end of the day, you can only try it and see if you're happy with the sound.

Edited September 17, 2011 by mart

[BigRedX]

My guitar rig includes a Hughes & Kettner Tube 50 combo. This has a built-in Red Box DI with speaker simulator. I also have a Marshall PowerBrake speaker attenuator which allows me to run the power amp at maximum and still keep the overall volume from the cab at a sensible level. In the studio there was minimal difference between this DI output and that of the speaker close-mic'd with an SM57. Live being able to DI the amp and reduce the number of mics and stands cluttering up the stage is a massive bonus.

If you like the sound that comes out of the speaker when you crank the amp then that's the sound that you really want to be recording. You'll have to experiment to see which sections of the amp are having the most effect on the overall sound and it may be that the pre-amp is all you need. However IME it's always surprising just how important driving the power amp valves is especially on the cleaner sounds and to get that you'll need to either record the speaker or derive a line-level output from the speaker out.

[Tuco]

thanks for all your replies fellas , most appreciated.. i REALLY tried to post a reply or 2 up yesterday but basschats facelift thwarted me!
looks like a weber mini mass would be a pretty good option for me and then i can run that straight into recabinet or sir2..
looking at the unit i imagined (in my infinite wisdom) it would be simply a case of taking the line out from the combo into "from amp" and hook up the combos external cab output into "to speaker" but after reading some of the blurb on the weber site i dont think it will be quite that simple, they state:
Most combo amps have internal speakers that can be unplugged from the amp chassis using a 1/4" phone plug. [b]UNPLUG[/b] the speaker from the amp. Run a short speaker cable from the output of the amp to the [b]INPUT[/b] of the attenuator. You may then plug the speaker directly into the [b]SPEAKER OUTPUT[/b] of the attenuator, or use a male-to-female extension cable if the speaker's wire won't reach.
hmmmmmm *scratches head*

[MoonBassAlpha]

One thing I think is always overlooked when talking about recording guitars loud is the interaction between the speaker and the guitar itself.
I used to love recording my SG on the verge of feedback, and that's one thing you just don't get with any of these setups.
I know not everyone will be looking for this sort of sound/style, but if you are, I came up with a nice solution.
I ran the amp output into a small speaker and tied it to the head of the guitar. You dont need a lot of juice going to the speaker to get the guitar to resonate in a beautiful, controllable feedback manner. It was a delight to play, until the speaker gave up, just needed to give it less beans!

[BigRedX]

Tuco. I think you'll need to post a photo of the back of your amp with all the connections so we can advise further. I take it that your speaker is hardwired into the amp chassis so you might have to cut this and add some plugs and sockets to allow you to use an attenuator.

[Tuco]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1316362856' post='1376924']
Tuco. I think you'll need to post a photo of the back of your amp with all the connections so we can advise further. I take it that your speaker is hardwired into the amp chassis so you might have to cut this and add some plugs and sockets to allow you to use an attenuator.
[/quote]
you presume right BigRedX , ALL of the speaker wiring and connections are internal and its a closed back..
like you said i think its going to be a case of opening it up to get an attenuator in the loop so to speak......
nothngs EVER simple is it???

thanks for taking the time to share your knowledge everyone