Cycle 4ths/5ths

[lobematt]

Has anybody got any good exercises to getting to grips with the cycle?

[Doddy]

You could do something relatively simple like running scales and arpeggios going through the cycle in order,paying attention
to the notes rather than blindly playing patterns...that's a decent starting point. You can then make that as difficult as you
want by doing things like running through all of the diatonic chords and modes in each key.....similar to Jakes exercise in
the other thread.

[Guest bassman7755]

Learn songs that utilise it. Err ... parisian walkways anyone ?? ... I'm others will have more suggestions.

[Guest bassman7755]

Windmils of your mind

[Kevin Glasgow]

There's a whole bunch of jazz tunes which utilize the cycle of fifths movement.

A few good examples are:-

I Got Rhythm

Sweet Georgia Brown

Jordu

Skippy

[lobematt]

I thought the idea was to learn the cycle to make it easier to learn songs that use it, not the other way round? I'll give them a try though!

[Guest bassman7755]

Well as always they are complimentary, when learning any musical devise its a good idea to learn some "reference" uses as well as the dry excercises as this is what really gets the signature sound in your head.

I find that particularly with CoF "dry" exercises on bass that I tend to get seduced by the fact that it lends itself so well to simple pattern shifting by virtue of the 4ths tuning - your not really learning anything by playing a scale/arpeggio and then shifting it down a string (or up a string a 2 frets). doddy will by along to slap my wrists any minuite now

A common instrument agnostic excercise is cycle through the key sequence playing over the [b]same range of notes [/b]say a c to c octave but adding one more sharp/flat each time to reflect the next key in the sequence. This is good for learning how to shift tonal center without abrupt melodic leaps but in the sort of music I play such shifts are a relative rarity - but if you play jazz/fusion etc youl probably get alot of milage out of it.

So between memorising the sequence itself, learning some appropriate songs, and (especially if your a jazzer) the above modulation excercise I think you will have it covered ...

[Doddy]

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1316605656' post='1380225']
I find that particularly with CoF "dry" exercises on bass that I tend to get seduced by the fact that it lends itself so well to simple pattern shifting by virtue of the 4ths tuning - your not really learning anything by playing a scale/arpeggio and then shifting it down a string (or up a string a 2 frets). doddy will by along to slap my wrists any minuite now
.[/quote]

No wrist slapping here....it is almost too easy to play a generic pattern and shift it up and down the instrument because of the
symmetry of the bass...and you won't learn much from this.
You can,however,get a lot out of it if you apply it differently-write out the scale either with the key signature,or with accidentals if you
prefer,and then play it all over your bass.Rather than get stuck in a pattern try playing them over 1,2,3 and 4 strings (more if you have them) and over as many octaves as you can and even inverting them (especially the arpeggios),you'll soon find you get out of blindly playing fingerings and you'll gain a lot of information.

[Kevin Glasgow]

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1316605656' post='1380225']

A common instrument agnostic excercise is cycle through the key sequence playing over the [b]same range of notes [/b]say a c to c octave but adding one more sharp/flat each time to reflect the next key in the sequence. This is good for learning how to shift tonal center without abrupt melodic leaps but in the sort of music I play such shifts are a relative rarity - but if you play jazz/fusion etc youl probably get alot of milage out of it.


[/quote]

Yeah, I've found these sorts of exercises to be very useful.

One good way to do it on the bass is to choose a specific area of the neck (e.g. between the 7th and 12th frets, or any area that covers about 5 or 6 frets)
and arpeggiate/walk/or solo over the changes of a tune or chord progression without moving out of that specific area on the neck.

Edited September 21, 2011 by Kevin Glasgow

[Guest bassman7755]

Some more CoF observations ...

The alteration to move to the next key "up" i.e. a 5th up, is a raised 4th.
The alteration to move to the next key "down" (or a 4th up), is a flattened 7th.

These alterations are of course the lydian and mixolydian modes respectively.

Of these alterations have to be used with care depending on now the chord functions in the song.

[bassist_lewis]

this may or may not be useful but I find it really cool that you can go through the modes from most major (lydian) to most minor (locrian) in one key by moving either up in 5ths or down in 4ths. for example play a G lydian, D ionian, A mixolydian, E dorian, B aeolian, F# phrygian, C# locrian, all of which come from the key of D major.
Even cooler than that (if you're as geeky as me) is that from the locrian you only need to flatten the root to make it a lydian, starting the whole sequence again.
this gets you used to playing in one key all over the neck. and you can expand it by starting from different modes
...too much at once?...

And once you've flattened the root of your locrian to become C lydian, you'll be in G major. TA DA!!! you've modulated down a 5th! (or up a 4th)

Edited September 24, 2011 by bassist_lewis

[Bilbo]

Jeff Berlin recommended an exercise where you play the relevant scale starting on a low E (or and going up the scale from there but, when the chord changes, you keep on going up the neck changing the relevant scale degrees each time until you get to the top of the neck where you turn around and go back down. It forces yyou to hear the differences in scales in a way that running one actave scales starting on the root doesn't.

[petercullenbassist]

[quote name='lobematt' timestamp='1316531161' post='1379274']
Has anybody got any good exercises to getting to grips with the cycle?
[/quote]

a way you can look at it is what I call "dot to dot" start by starting on C (3rd fret) on the A string, then go down a string to G (1 sharp) then go up 2 frets and 1 string to D (2 sharps) then down a string to A (3 sharps) continue this same finger patten until F Sharp (6 sharps) you just go Dot to Dot on the fret board. (I dont see the point of C# since Db is the same sounding but easier on the mind because Db has 5 flats and C# has 7 sharps)
for the flats you avoid the Dots starting on C on the E string, and instead of going up 2 frets, you go down.
if anyone doesnt get it for what ever reason, i could make a clip if you like.

BUT... heres something to think about, when i was in school when i was 10, every friday, we were all given 20 words to learn over the weekend, then we were tested on then on monday. so... there are only 14 key signatures, so just learn them, then making sense of them is alot easier!

Pete x

[Bilbo]

Excellent point, Pete. This stuff is not complicated and 'tricks' to memorise the whole thing are not that important. Just learn the damn thing

[lobematt]

I'll consider myself told!

[bassist_lewis]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1317287042' post='1388950']
Excellent point, Pete. This stuff is not complicated and 'tricks' to memorise the whole thing are not that important. Just learn the damn thing
[/quote]

the trick is finding a method of learning that works for you

[Bilbo]

Try a piano. It all makes more sense on a piano

[uncle psychosis]

I have a really irritating gap in my bass knowledge. I started out playing woodwind instruments and have a lot of music theory knowledge---I know all my major, minor scales, decent grasp of modes and chord theory. Problem is, I've never learned the names of the notes on the fretboard and I've yet to find a method for doing so that actually works for me. If I could do so I think my bass playing would come on in leaps and bounds almost overnight---I know lots of the theory, I just need to know where the notes are so I can apply it!

[Bilbo]

Learn them. Start with the first four frets and the open strings and the rest will grow from there.

E - F - F sharp/Gb - G - G sharp/Ab

A - A sharp/Bb - B - C - C sharp/Db

D - D sharp/Eb - E - F - Fsharp/Gb

G - G sharp/Ab - A - A sharp/Bb - B

[Guest bassman7755]

Ive tried loads of different ways and none of them really stuck, at the moment I'm having a go at learning to read (one string at a time - a bit unusual maybe but it seem to be working so far), so that would be my suggestion to you given that you can already persumably read the note names.