JTUK Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 Since impedance isn't an absolute thing on cabs, I wouldn't be taking liberties running too low Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aldude Posted September 21, 2011 Author Share Posted September 21, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1316626050' post='1380620'] I wonder. Its weird how they have admitted to the min load issue, but not officially said 'go and use any 3 8 ohm cabinets, or a 4 and 8.' Could lead to quite an interesting stack. [/quote] Ah yes, it could well lead to a Compact+S12T stack! Speaking of which, I had a go at it tonight. Now it was at low practice volumes and just me on my own, but here are a few initial thoughts. The sound of both cabs is instantly quite different. The Compact is deep and slightly woolly (I am used to a tweeter!), perhaps a scooped sound compared to the S12T but at least seemed not as strong in the mids as the S12T. Whereas, the S12T on its own sounded a lot brighter and punchier, definitely better for playing up at the dusty end, butt noticably less "deep" than the Compact. But both together? ... oh my god. This is the sound I have been after all these years - both deep and punchy at the same time. Everything is there, and the two cabs go together completely naturally. Love it! After 10 mins of low volume playing the amp didn't complain at all or even get warm, though obviously this is not a very thorough test! I am definitely looking forward to cranking this rig up at the next rehearsal! As an aside, yes the 2.66 ohm stuff is in that table, so it looks like TC have admitted these amps are 2.66 ohm capable. Even more interesting is there "peak" power of 800W that has always been put forward, is actually the peak power at 2.66 ohm load. So I don't really expect any problems with the Barefaced cabs I've got now. EDIT: And it looks more and more that "only works with three TC cabs" is just marketing for you to go and buy more TC cabs! Edited September 21, 2011 by aldude Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nottswarwick Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 [quote name='aldude' timestamp='1316636377' post='1380855'] Ah yes, it could well lead to a Compact+S12T stack! Speaking of which, I had a go at it tonight. Now it was at low practice volumes and just me on my own, but here are a few initial thoughts. The sound of both cabs is instantly quite different. The Compact is deep and slightly woolly (I am used to a tweeter!), perhaps a scooped sound compared to the S12T but at least seemed not as strong in the mids as the S12T. Whereas, the S12T on its own sounded a lot brighter and punchier, definitely better for playing up at the dusty end, butt noticably less "deep" than the Compact. But both together? ... oh my god. This is the sound I have been after all these years - both deep and punchy at the same time. Everything is there, and the two cabs go together completely naturally. Love it! After 10 mins of low volume playing the amp didn't complain at all or even get warm, though obviously this is not a very thorough test! I am definitely looking forward to cranking this rig up at the next rehearsal! As an aside, yes the 2.66 ohm stuff is in that table, so it looks like TC have admitted these amps are 2.66 ohm capable. Even more interesting is there "peak" power of 800W that has always been put forward, is actually the peak power at 2.66 ohm load. So I don't really expect any problems with the Barefaced cabs I've got now. EDIT: And it looks more and more that "only works with three TC cabs" is just marketing for you to go and buy more TC cabs! [/quote] I currently have a Compact and S12t both at my place (Compact going back). But I cannot try it as my ABM is only 4ohm capable... MY interest is awakened in the TC amps again though...but go not dosh so it will have to wait. For a long time... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aldude Posted September 21, 2011 Author Share Posted September 21, 2011 [quote name='nottswarwick' timestamp='1316637337' post='1380874'] I currently have a Compact and S12t both at my place (Compact going back). But I cannot try it as my ABM is only 4ohm capable... MY interest is awakened in the TC amps again though...but go not dosh so it will have to wait. For a long time... [/quote] According to that table, the TC BH500 is 2 ohm capable! So that should handle the Compact+S12T fine, and that's £339 new at soundslive, not sure about 2nd hand though. You could even add a second compact for a 2xCompact + S12T mega-rig Or even, 4 compacts, two Super 12s, ... (dreams) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nottswarwick Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 or a big f*** off power QSC power amp, 2ohms per side, 6 cabs, stereo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 Nice to see some straight answers from TC - everything is clear now (to me at least!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bassman7755 Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 Traditionally amp designs rely on the speaker not to draw too much current at the amps maximimum rail voltage in order to limit overall power. However if your actively regulating the current then it should surely adjust to any impedence automatically. I'm guessing that class D amp design makes it easier to do such dynmic current limiting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BassBod Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 Now you've lost me.....does it go to 11? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexanderWelbourne Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 Hey, do any of you barefaced users happen to be in Manchester? I'd really like to try out a Midget T if anyone would put up with me doing so for half an hour or so. Cheers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted October 9, 2011 Share Posted October 9, 2011 [quote name='aldude' timestamp='1316616234' post='1380417'] That's an interesting document, and if I understand it correctly, the TC amp looks like a lower power amp due to its limiting of high peaks to create a more tubey sound, so this implies that the high peaks that we don't really hear anyway contribute quite a lot to the measured power output of an amp. Or, to put it another way, the 236W measured by that bass magazine (can't remember which right now) is mainly a fault of the testing method, which includes the loud peaks that you don't really hear anyway, the loud peaks being reproduced unnecessarily by the "other" solid state heads, but this is beneficial to the other heads as it ups the apparent wattage without really sounding much louder. I appreciate this has been scrutinised by TC's PR department but it certainly does help in understanding what the amp is up to! Unfortunately this does not address the ohmage capability of the amp and whether it would cope with 2.67 or even 2 ohms. [/quote] You can hear the peaks though. If they are truly represented you get a very different impression from an amp putting out the full wump of huge trnsient peaks into a cab that can reproduce them compared to an amp and cab that cant. The rig that produces them will tend to sound effortless, and will feel like you can dig in as hard as you like and it 'just delivers' on the other hand the amp that is limiting will temd toward a warmer sound (it is binning your attack to a noticeable degree) and will sound full, but it will also feel like it chokes up a bit wen you try and dig in, and that it doesnt really put out what you put in so much. Which you prefer is a different question, but anyone trying to claim that you cant hear them and you cant feel it or hear the difference when they arent there is tripping. Put it another way, if I create two masters of a mix, with the same RMS volume, but I brickwall limit one and not the other, the one that isnt limited will sound way better, every time. The one that is limited could have been made to have a higher RMS berfore clipping, but thats the con, if you dont do that then you get a better sounding mix (albeit with a lower RMS). This amp is applying the same (or very similar) tech to your bass sound, with a nice soft knee attack so you dont all get shirty about it. If you like it, thats fine, but if you dont then there is a really good reason why that might be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wateroftyne Posted October 9, 2011 Share Posted October 9, 2011 [quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1318172440' post='1398779'] If you like it, thats fine, but if you dont then there is a really good reason why that might be. [/quote] Yip - I was one of those who didn't like it. It drove me nuts... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aldude Posted October 14, 2011 Author Share Posted October 14, 2011 I'm firing up this rig good n proper at a gig tonight, I have been using it at very low volumes for the past couple of weeks without a single problem but tonight should put it through its paces a bit more! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bassman7755 Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 I think depends a lot on what type sound you use. If you use an overdriven sound then your already removing those high amplitude transients anyway so vast amounts of headroom in the poweramp dosnt make any odds. Its a different story for a clean sound. Even there though I'm not convinced that those venerated chest slamming transients translate to anything musical or that enhaces the overall sound of the band from an audience point of view - I doubt they are evident at any appreciable distance from the speakers, and they certainly wont make it unscathed through any kind of recording process. At least with an overdriven sound I dont miss my 1.6kw QSC compared to the RH450. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winterfire666 Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 looking forward to hearing your thoughts, im biding my time at the moment before i shell out for a compact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charic Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 With just 1 x 210 the one thing that really stood out at the last gig was shear 'presence' of the bass. Apparently I was dominating the mix with my amp on 1/4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aldude Posted October 14, 2011 Author Share Posted October 14, 2011 I'm after a clean sound and the RH450 does quite well for me. I have not noticed much difference in initial note sounds compared to a massive old Trace that I used before, though I had the compressor on quite high on that. It certainly helps having (now two) high sensitivity cabs as I am less likely to hit that infamous power management limit. Either way, I shall hit the audience hard tonight and post my thoughts as soon as I can! FWIW, if I turn up the "Tubetone" to max there is this horrible, buzzy bee noise. Is this what people call overdriven tube tone? If so, it's not for me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 (edited) [quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1318601360' post='1404216'] I think depends a lot on what type sound you use. If you use an overdriven sound then your already removing those high amplitude transients anyway so vast amounts of headroom in the poweramp dosnt make any odds. Its a different story for a clean sound. [b]Even there though I'm not convinced that those venerated chest slamming transients translate to anything musical or that enhaces the overall sound of the band from an audience point of view - I doubt they are evident at any appreciable distance from the speakers, and they certainly wont make it unscathed through any kind of recording process.[/b] At least with an overdriven sound I dont miss my 1.6kw QSC compared to the RH450. [/quote] Not so. The transients are a very musical thing, they are certainly ultra important to the timbre of the sound, the brain takes large hints as to the timbre of a sound based solely on its initial transient. If you like a bright bass sound then one that has a good clear clean transient will sound brighter. The transient also supplies a lot of directional info (less important, but ineresting nevertheless) since the difference in time that the transient hits your ears is as important as relative volume in discerning direction. A clean transient is super important for slap bass, and pick bass then. Why do you think the transient would be any more effected by the atmosphere and bodies than any other part of the sound in a venue? Sound pressure level decreases by 6 dB per doubling of distance from the source, regardless of initial volume, so the ratio between the transient and the rest of the sound will stay nominally the same however far away from the source you are (admittedly in an anechoic chamber, and not taking into account room modes/acoustics of the venue so much, but the rule is generally accurate). The frequency response changes more over distance. When recording clean bass the normal route is a DI box. A decent (something around £100) DI will completely preserve the transient (or close enough as to have no appreciable difference), which is a big reason why it is so used in recording! If by saying you dont think those transients could survive any kind of recording process you are referring to the use of compression whilst refcording and more importatnly mixing, and the use of brickwall limiters whilst mastering then I think you are misinformed. Whilst it is often the case that a compressor may be set to have an attack time short enough to change the initail transient, it is also very very usual to allow the transien tthrough unscathed (attack > 60ms) on a lot of signals (bass included). In fact it may be the case that the initail transient is emphasised by the use of compression. If that produces the desired result. This is definitely often the case. When it comes to brickwall limiting, well you're right, if that is applied to maximum effect (Death Magnetic anyone?) then you end up with crushed transients even in the bass. However, used sparringly it will tend to effect the loudest transients only - which is more often the kick and or snare rather than the bass IME. It is still possible to have the bass transient there and virtually unscathed very often. Now I'm a big fan of compressors, and I love using and abusing compression live and in the studio, but if you dont have a strong transient to start with that really does effect the way a compressor subsequently sounds, and if you have a brickwall limited sound in the first place there is pretty much nothing you can do other than carve a transient out with a compressor, and that doesnt sound anything like a s good as an unlimited natural sound, if that is your goal. To quote Bruce Swedien (and he has forgotten more about recording than you or I will ever know):- [quote]In the music that I am normally involved in, I have always felt that good transient content is one of the very most important components of the recorded image. I would even go so far as to say that transient response has at it’s core a direct relationship to the emotional impact of a recording. Particularly in the main genre’s of music that I record.... namely R & B and ‘Pop’ recordings[/quote] Edited October 14, 2011 by 51m0n Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aldude Posted October 14, 2011 Author Share Posted October 14, 2011 I guess the upshot is that some people find the transient important and others don't (or don't notice it!). As for the audience, who generally is not concerned or aware of things like transients, well.... who knows if they will be able to notice the difference. But, I would suggest that if any musical advantage comes in from such transients it's probably minor, compared with the other 100 things that make music sound good. Just my $0.02... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wateroftyne Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Transients add to my enjoyment and make me play better... that's part of the reason I couldn't get on with the RH450. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 [quote name='aldude' timestamp='1318607285' post='1404327'] I guess the upshot is that some people find the transient important and others don't (or don't notice it!). As for the audience, who generally is not concerned or aware of things like transients, well.... who knows if they will be able to notice the difference. But, I would suggest that if any musical advantage comes in from such transients it's probably minor, compared with the other 100 things that make music sound good. Just my $0.02... [/quote] Its also a 'feel' thing for the player. Having the ability to reproduce the transients fully really does change the feel of an amp for the player though. If you dont get on with having that artifically reigned it it will definitely affect how you play, and that will affect how the audience perceives the band. I certainly dont mean to suggest that the RH450 is a terrible amp, far from it, I'm merely pointing out that it has a design that imparts various characteristics that you may or may not find helpful. Same as any amp really. But dont think the audience cant percieve transient info, its quite literally built in to them, they cant help it at all, our brains are incredibly adept at determining alot of info from the transient of a sound, its how we can identify a twig snapping as Mr Hungry Predator sneaks up on us in the dead of night, and work out which way to run..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merton Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 [quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1318607717' post='1404336']Transients add to my enjoyment and make me play better... that's part of the reason I couldn't get on with the RH450.[/quote] The more I read your comments on the RH450 and your amp preferences the more I think I need a Streamliner. Stop it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aldude Posted October 14, 2011 Author Share Posted October 14, 2011 [quote name='Merton' timestamp='1318608181' post='1404341'] The more I read your comments on the RH450 and your amp preferences the more I think I need a Streamliner. Stop it [/quote] Me too, and I'm happy with the RH450. Ish. For now. Aargh! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charic Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Listen to it in a full band situation and choose for yourself I listen to mine at low volume and go hmmm... Then I listen to it on my recordings and get comments after playing live about how good the bass sounded (even though the gig didn't go so well). The Autumn Leaves recording of Cerberus Cell is my ACG -> RH450 -> Di'd to desk Right next to no editing. Just incase anyone wants to listen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShergoldSnickers Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 [quote name='Merton' timestamp='1318608181' post='1404341'] The more I read your comments on the RH450 and your amp preferences the more I think I need a Streamliner. Stop it [/quote] We need to make him stop it. I still have dreams about Wot's Streamliner sat on my cab. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lozz196 Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 [quote name='aldude' timestamp='1318603173' post='1404249'] FWIW, if I turn up the "Tubetone" to max there is this horrible, buzzy bee noise. Is this what people call overdriven tube tone? If so, it's not for me! [/quote] In agreement.On max, the Tubetone isn`t very pleasing to my ears either. But, put it on about 4, and it`s just right, in my opinion. The slightest bit of breakup and warmth. With the Spectracomp on the same, very nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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