Kevin Glasgow Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 Hi Folks, Just wondering if any of you practice/experiment with/or use odd tuplets (e.g. quintuplets, septuplets, etc)? It’s an area that has always intrigued me but one that I find hard to make much progress with. I’d be curious to know how you guys use them in your playing and how you practice them. Also, do you know of any good examples of them in recordings/pieces? I only know of a few different examples like Zappa’s ‘Black Page’, Steve Vai’s ‘Bledsoe Bluvd’, and ‘Five’ by Bill Evans. Cheers, Kev Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lobematt Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 I was doing some reading about Jaco that said it quintuplet runs were one of his little trademarks, I could never really get my head around them though! Wouldn't mind being pointed in the right direction too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Glasgow Posted September 21, 2011 Author Share Posted September 21, 2011 [quote name='lobematt' timestamp='1316602562' post='1380148'] I was doing some reading about Jaco that said it quintuplet runs were one of his little trademarks, I could never really get my head around them though! Wouldn't mind being pointed in the right direction too [/quote] Ah, that's interesting. Do you know of any good examples of him playing quintuplets? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lobematt Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 Not off the top of my head sorry mate, check this book out though [url="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Jaco-Extraordinary-Tragic-Life-Pastorius/dp/0879308591"]http://www.amazon.co.uk/Jaco-Extraordinary-Tragic-Life-Pastorius/dp/0879308591[/url] That's what I read it in and its well worth a read anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doddy Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 [quote name='lobematt' timestamp='1316602562' post='1380148']I was doing some reading about Jaco that said it quintuplet runs were one of his little trademarks, I could never really get my head around them though! Wouldn't mind being pointed in the right direction too [/quote] What Jaco did a lot was play semi quavers in a five note grouping rather than play actual quintuplets......so rather than play quintuplets which would be 1(2345),2(2345),3(2345),4(2345),he'd play a five note grouping like 1e+a2, e+a3e, +a4e+,a1e+a etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lobematt Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 Don't suppose you've got any examples of this sort of stuff? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doddy Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 (edited) [quote name='lobematt' timestamp='1316604324' post='1380189']Don't suppose you've got any examples of this sort of stuff?[/quote] The first one I can think of,off the top of my head,is in his solo on 'Continuum' Edited for lame spelling Edited September 21, 2011 by Doddy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Glasgow Posted September 21, 2011 Author Share Posted September 21, 2011 [quote name='lobematt' timestamp='1316604324' post='1380189'] Don't suppose you've got any examples of this sort of stuff? [/quote] He does a nice one of those licks in his solo on 'Port of Entry' from 'Night Passage'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TKenrick Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 (edited) [quote name='lobematt' timestamp='1316604324' post='1380189'] Don't suppose you've got any examples of this sort of stuff? [/quote] The string line in the intro to Kuru (okay so it's not on bass, but it's still Jaco!) [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OeFoNFOpXsc"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OeFoNFOpXsc[/url] edited for technical incompetence Edited September 21, 2011 by TKenrick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lobematt Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 thanks! I'll give them a good re-listen tonight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bassman7755 Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1316603983' post='1380182'] What Jaco did a lot was play semi quavers in a five note grouping rather than play actual quintuplets......so rather than play quintuplets which would be 1(2345),2(2345),3(2345),4(2345),he'd play a five note grouping like 1e+a2, e+a3e, +a4e+,a1e+a etc. [/quote] So that would be the same idea as something like this .. [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yc8xyL0Xxo#t=02m00s[/media] (which is 3-groupings of semis ...) I've never tried 5-groupings of semis though. Whats the proper term for this - I've always (possibly incorrectly) called it a "polyrhythm" ?. Edited September 22, 2011 by bassman7755 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bassman7755 Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 [quote name='Kevin Glasgow' timestamp='1316601118' post='1380098'] Hi Folks, Just wondering if any of you practice/experiment with/or use odd tuplets (e.g. quintuplets, septuplets, etc)? It’s an area that has always intrigued me but one that I find hard to make much progress with. I’d be curious to know how you guys use them in your playing and how you practice them. [/quote] Not so much as note groupings but I do sometimes play songs with 5/7/9 etc based meters. I get them into my head by just tapping on the desk and emphisizing the 5th/7th etc taps until it no longer feels like a "forced" grouping, dunno if that would be at all helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doddy Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 [quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1316690509' post='1381430'] Whats the proper term for this - I've always (possibly incorrectly) called it a "polyrhythm" ?.[/quote] It's not really a polyrhythm. A polyrhythm would be something like 5 notes in the space of 4 or whatever, what this is is just odd note groupings of straight semiquavers where you are just shifting the accent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassist_lewis Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 in the solo for '(used to be a) cha cha' he does it for a bar and a half. there's also an article in BGM by Janek Gwizdala a few months ago about rhythmic groupings. In my personal experience accenting in groups of 3 is relatively easy, 5s is much weirder, tried it with pentatonics a few times but still needs LOTS of work Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alun Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 I have practiced them quite a bit over the years. The easiest way I know to play quintplets is to say "Hippopotamus" on each beat, although any 5 syllable word will do. It's sort a simpleton version of Indian rhythmic vocabulary. For septuplets try "Hungry Hippopotamus". For examples, there are loads in Zappa's work - Black Page has all sorts, Montanta and Inca Roads have quite a few quintuplets, amongst many others. Cheers Alun PS Kevin - looking forward to seeing you with Tommy Smith in Cardiff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Glasgow Posted September 24, 2011 Author Share Posted September 24, 2011 [quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1316691051' post='1381442'] Not so much as note groupings but I do sometimes play songs with 5/7/9 etc based meters. I get them into my head by just tapping on the desk and emphisizing the 5th/7th etc taps until it no longer feels like a "forced" grouping, dunno if that would be at all helpful. [/quote] Yeah, I play quite a lot of different time signatures in some of the different bands I play with. I've found that practicing and playing these odd meters definitely helps me with polyrhythms, but I find that I still struggle when it comes to solidly playing 5 or 7 in the space of 4. I think it's the challenge of being able feel/play the two rhythms simultaneously which makes it really tricky. [quote name='Alun' timestamp='1316813614' post='1383401'] I have practiced them quite a bit over the years. The easiest way I know to play quintplets is to say "Hippopotamus" on each beat, although any 5 syllable word will do. It's sort a simpleton version of Indian rhythmic vocabulary. For septuplets try "Hungry Hippopotamus". For examples, there are loads in Zappa's work - Black Page has all sorts, Montanta and Inca Roads have quite a few quintuplets, amongst many others. Cheers Alun PS Kevin - looking forward to seeing you with Tommy Smith in Cardiff [/quote] "Hungry Hippopotamus"!! Awesome! I like that. I'll definitely give that a try. Thanks for the Zappa recommendations, I'll check those out. Yeah, hopefully see you at the Tommy gig. Should be fun! (Maybe I can steel some more polyrhythmic tips off you while I'm there! ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alun Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 I'm really enjoying the Karma album so looking forward to hearing it live (and trying to work out how you play some of the unison lines!) PS another good example of quintuplets is in the main riff to Mike Keneally's Uglytown (the first two beats of the second bar in the intro are quintuplets) Cheers Alun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassist_lewis Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 what about putting it into sibelius? then playing along Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Glasgow Posted September 24, 2011 Author Share Posted September 24, 2011 [quote name='Alun' timestamp='1316869559' post='1383859'] I'm really enjoying the Karma album so looking forward to hearing it live (and trying to work out how you play some of the unison lines!) PS another good example of quintuplets is in the main riff to Mike Keneally's Uglytown (the first two beats of the second bar in the intro are quintuplets) Cheers Alun [/quote] I'm glad that you're enjoying the album. (Yeah, some of those lines are really tricky. I better get practicing them again before the gig! ) Had a listen to "Ugly Town", really cool! Those Zappa guys are all over that stuff! Gonna check out more of Keneally's stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Glasgow Posted September 24, 2011 Author Share Posted September 24, 2011 [quote name='bassist_lewis' timestamp='1316871294' post='1383903'] what about putting it into sibelius? then playing along [/quote] Yeah, that's a good idea. I'll give that a shot. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doddy Posted September 25, 2011 Share Posted September 25, 2011 [quote name='Alun' timestamp='1316869559' post='1383859'] PS another good example of quintuplets is in the main riff to Mike Keneally's Uglytown (the first two beats of the second bar in the intro are quintuplets) [/quote] Keneally does a lot of that kind of stuff. The track 'Egg Zooming' from 'Sluggo!' is a really crazy example,but there is some really out there stuff on all of his albums. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted September 25, 2011 Share Posted September 25, 2011 Lots of sax players use these 5 against 5, 7 against 4 11 against 4 etc. Examples I can think of include Joe Lovano, Coltrane, Chris Potter etc But the best example of rhis in its purest form is the head of Jeff Watts' arrangement of Autumn Leaves off Wynton Marsalis' Standard Time Vol. 1. The bars are as follows: 1 = semi breve 2 = 2 minims 3 = 3 agsinst 4 4 = 4 crotchets 5 = 5 against 4 6 = 2 crotchet triplets 7 = 7 against 4 8 = 8 quavers http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Xi-emWNePw [youtube]4Xi-emWNePw[/youtube] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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