aidanhallbass Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 (edited) attached is a list of all modes in all keys which I have compiled.. If you are looking at solo work then this is invaluable to you, in any case its good for general theory practice. Edited September 26, 2011 by aidanhallbass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bassman7755 Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 [quote name='aidanhallbass' timestamp='1317023824' post='1385453'] attached is a list of all modes in all keys which I have compiled.. If you are looking at solo work then this is invaluable to you, in any case its good for general theory practice. [/quote] Thanks but it strikes me that there a lot of redundency in that way of laying them out. Wouldnt it be more concise to say "these 7 notes are the following 7 modes" e.g. CDEFGAB is C major, D dorian E phygrian etc GABCDEF# is G major, A dorian B phygrian etc I suppose it depends how ones mind works. My brain is rubbish at rote learning so I try to reduce everything to the minimum amount of new information. Personally I treat modes as alterations to the base key ( a "formula") and ignore the derivation of mode itself e.g. mixolydian - I II III IV V VI bVII etc so playing C mixolydian I just flatten the B. A full explanation of such an approach is here [url="http://www.riddleworks.com/modes2.html"]http://www.riddleworks.com/modes2.html[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FuNkShUi Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 I can see what your saying, but if you are doing solo work, as he mentioned above, its there for you at a glance. Im sure it will come in useful for me anyway. Cheers Aiden Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andydye Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 that's fab thanks! one question... so Ionian is major, dorian is one of the minors (can't recall which one - harmonic or...) what do the modes all relate to? min7 etc??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FuNkShUi Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 Andy, i dont know how to work this in the "proper way", but the Dorian is a Minor with a flattened 2nd. Before i go on to try explain further, is this what you were asking? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doddy Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 [quote name='FuNkShUi' timestamp='1317033957' post='1385606'] Andy, i dont know how to work this in the "proper way", but the Dorian is a Minor with a flattened 2nd. [/quote] No it isn't...Dorian is a minor scale with a raised 6th. The scale degrees would be 1,2,b3,4,5,6,b7. Phrygian is a minor scale with a flattened 2nd- 1,b2,b3,4,5,b6,b7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FuNkShUi Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 (edited) Sorry, my bad, rushed that response and made a muck up! monday morning is my only excuse Edited September 26, 2011 by FuNkShUi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andydye Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 hhmmm, I'm trying to relate the modes to a relevant chord, so, from the pdf info it would appear that: Ionian - major Dorian - b3 b7 (Doddy - a scale wouldn't have natural 6 and #6 while missing out 7 would it?) Phrygian - b2, b3, b6, b7 Lydian - #4 Mixolidian - b7 Aeolian - b3, b6, b7 Locrian - b2, b3, b5, b6, b7 which makes them: Ionian - major Dorian - minor 7 Phrygian - ? Lydian - aug 4th Mixolidian - 7 Aeolian - ? Locrian - ? ??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doddy Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 [quote name='andydye' timestamp='1317036996' post='1385678'] Dorian - b3 b7 (Doddy - a scale wouldn't have natural 6 and #6 while missing out 7 would it?)[/quote] In this context all the modal scales will have the degrees 1 to 7,so none of the scales would have a 6 while missing out the 7. Also in this context,the 6th will either be natural or flattened and not sharpened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassist_lewis Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 sometimes i find it easier to think in tones and semitones: ionian - T T S T T T S dorian - T S T T T S T phrygian - S T T T S T T lydian - T T T S T T S mixolydian - T T S T T S T aeolian - T S T T S T T locrian - S T T S T T T Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daz Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 thanks for the chart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bassman7755 Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 [quote name='FuNkShUi' timestamp='1317032058' post='1385581'] I can see what your saying, but if you are doing solo work, as he mentioned above, its there for you at a glance. Im sure it will come in useful for me anyway. Cheers Aiden [/quote] Let me first say that all reference material posted here is of course to be appreciated and welcomed. I hope to contribute my own at some point which I fully expect to attract appropriate scruitiny and criticism ... However I guess I am just on a bit of a personal crusade to encourage people to consider learning things in a way that doesnt require one to be dependent on external reference matterial. I guess its not an approach that suits everyone though. [quote] hhmmm, I'm trying to relate the modes to a relevant chord, so, from the pdf info it would appear that: Ionian - major Dorian - b3 b7 (Doddy - a scale wouldn't have natural 6 and #6 while missing out 7 would it?) Phrygian - b2, b3, b6, b7 Lydian - #4 Mixolidian - b7 Aeolian - b3, b6, b7 Locrian - b2, b3, b5, b6, b7 which makes them: Ionian - major Dorian - minor 7 Phrygian - ? Lydian - aug 4th Mixolidian - 7 Aeolian - ? Locrian - ? [/quote] Youve essentially answered your own question with the scale formula you gave, all you have to do is look at the appropriate notes in each scale i.e. the 1/3/5/7 (or for plain triads 1/3/5) degrees and youve got your answer e.g. Locrean ... 1,b3,b5,b7 = min7b5 (or "diminished" if only looking at the 1/b3/b5 triad). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 Doddy I feel a lesson coming on! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeBrownBass Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 [quote name='bassist_lewis' timestamp='1317068756' post='1386431'] sometimes i find it easier to think in tones and semitones: ionian - T T S T T T S dorian - T S T T T S T phrygian - S T T T S T T lydian - T T T S T T S mixolydian - T T S T T S T aeolian - T S T T S T T locrian - S T T S T T T [/quote] Ahh i find this method doesn't aid me in anyway. With a system like this there is little way to relate it to a scale quickly, whereas knowing that a Dorian scale has a a b3 & b7 it is instantly accessible. I hope that makes sense in a weird way Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakenewmanbass Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 (edited) At the risk of sounding obvious, I think the best way to know these things is to learn the sounds, when it comes to fingerings if you are serious about being able to improvise using the associated harmony with these scales then you should have not one method but a myriad of ways of playing through these things, I totally understand you need to start somewhere so whichever 'system of getting started' works for you is fine, because soon enough you'll realise that to be adept with these things is a subject filled with possibility. Edited October 3, 2011 by jakesbass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TPJ Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 (edited) Thanks for the chart Jake. I agree that sitting and playing these will help you hear how these modes sound and work. I'm going to use this as a practice warm-up Edited October 3, 2011 by TPJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doddy Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 Quick one..... I've finally looked at the chart in the OP,and the part for the key of F is wrong. It's written as F,G,A,A#,C,D,E. It should be F,G,A,Bb,C,D,E. Bb not A#. There are also similar mistakes in the keys of A#,C#,D#,F# and G#. Overall,good effort but must try harder,especially as it says that it's good for general theory practice...there are too many mistakes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aidanhallbass Posted October 3, 2011 Author Share Posted October 3, 2011 ive never understood why some people prefer b rather than # and visa versa, is there a right or wrong way? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doddy Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 [quote name='aidanhallbass' timestamp='1317649053' post='1392668']ive never understood why some people prefer b rather than # and visa versa, is there a right or wrong way?[/quote] It depends on the key. For example,G has one sharp (G,A,B,C,D,E,F#),and F has one flat (F,G,A,Bb,C,D,E) Sharp keys are-G, D, A, E, B, F#, C# Flat keys are- F, Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb, Cb C major obviously has no sharps or flats. Each scale has each letter between A-G appearing once in some form,so in the key of C# (as an extreme example) you would have the notes C#,D#,E#,F#,G#,A#,B#. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bassman7755 Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 [quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1317649560' post='1392677'] Each scale has each letter between A-G appearing once in some form,so in the key of C# (as an extreme example) you would have the notes C#,D#,E#,F#,G#,A#,B#. [/quote] C# - ugh , Db is surely preferable, personally I cant be doing with E#/Fb B#/Cb note naming - an F is an F and I cant bring myself to think of it as "some kind of an E"... ever. Is a bit like labelling first gear on a gearbox "neutral sharp" . A purely personal rant you understand . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doddy Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 [quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1317652655' post='1392747'] C# - ugh , Db is surely preferable, personally I cant be doing with E#/Fb B#/Cb note naming - an F is an F and I cant bring myself to think of it as "some kind of an E"... ever. Is a bit like labelling first gear on a gearbox "neutral sharp" . A purely personal rant you understand .[/quote] Db might be preferable to C#,but you get charts written both ways,so you should know how it works and try to comfortable with seeing notes like E# and Fb. I was playing a chart only yesterday which was written in six flats ( Gb major) and then you have to a read C as Cb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aidanhallbass Posted October 4, 2011 Author Share Posted October 4, 2011 But E# and Fb don't exist?? They are notes in there own right.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doddy Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 [quote name='aidanhallbass' timestamp='1317733845' post='1393832']But E# and Fb don't exist?? They are notes in there own right.. [/quote] They do exist in certain key signatures. E# exists in the keys of F# major and C# major,while Fb can be found in the key of Cb (and their relative minors). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skej21 Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1317735387' post='1393869'] They do exist in certain key signatures. E# exists in the keys of F# major and C# major,while Fb can be found in the key of Cb (and their relative minors). [/quote] +1 Might I also suggest that the O.P has not included all the modes in all keys, but simply included all of the naturally occuring modes in each key without taking into account any alterations to the key centre, such as the use of harmonic/melodic minor scales. If you were going to include all of the modes for all keys, you need to include the modes that are created when using the Harmonic Minor Scale and the Melodic Minor Scale. Whether they are used as a consistent key centre or appear due to the inclusive of a modulation (transient or complete), you still need to know them for when the altered chords crop up, especially when using lead sheets for solo improvisation. For example, the modes of the melodic minor are considerably different: i - ascending melodic minor scale ii - Dorian b2 (for [i]dom7 sus b9 [/i]chord) iii - Lydian Augmented (for m[i]aj7+5 [/i]chord) iv - Lydian Dominant (for [i]dom7#11 [/i]chord) v- Mixolydian b6 (for [i]dom7b13 [/i]chord) vi - Half-diminished/Locrian [font=Arial Unicode MS, Lucida Sans Unicode]♮[/font]2 (for [i]min7b5 [/i]chord) vii - Altered scale (for [i]dom7#9b13 [/i]chord) Edited October 4, 2011 by skej21 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skej21 Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 (edited) [quote name='aidanhallbass' timestamp='1317649053' post='1392668'] ive never understood why some people prefer b rather than # and visa versa, is there a right or wrong way? [/quote] Also, to clarify on Doddy's sentiment about choice of notes. When writing out key signatures, you should never repeat the use of a note. This is a rule used mainly for notated music but is carried over into theory when discussing key signatures etc. You're right that there's not much difference between you PLAYING/thinking about an A# or a Bb, but it becomes a problem when you are trying to communicate with others what you mean (in either notation or when talking). For example, F, G, A, A# etc is incorrect, because you have A twice. This means that if you are sightreading, you would have to constantly switch between a notated natural A and the use of a # incidental to communicate the use of the two notes. This would quickly get confusing and requires the reader to have more to think about. (See top line in image below) By using consecutive note letters, you get rid of this confusion. For example, F, G, A, Bb, C, D, E allows you to simply add a "Bb" into the key signature at the start of the written music, and that communicates the use of an A and Bb without having to continuously flip between the two. (See bottom line in image below) Hope this helps Edited October 4, 2011 by skej21 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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