Rehearsal - hours in, and how to encourage other band members

[Gust0o]

Chaps, I'm sure this is all buried away in other topics, but I'm back on the question of rehearsal - particularly the rehearsal of original songs.

I've been critical of my guitarist before on these forums. He has some reasonable skill, and he's a good contributor of riffs... but only riffs. Last night things almost came to a head, after a particularly awful rehearsal, where it was apparent that:
[list]
[*]Neither he nor the drummer are actively rehearsing individually, despite our recording every session as a "play along"; the resulting play was sloppy and the structure of some of the originals can shift depending on what the guitarist remembers.
[*]Throwing out new riffs all the time is distracting - they take up too much attention and focus and don't leave the room as finished product; I don't mind the odd jam, but three hours of jam to get nothing is a f***ing wind up
[/list]
I'm worried I'm becoming the stereotypical bass player - the nit-picker, talking another technical language, and generally being un-rock-and-roll.

I practice maybe 4hrs a week, or so, sitting down and listening to what we have and genuinely practicing the specifics. I will then noodle another few hours, since I always have a bass to hand, either coming up with new stuff or just mucking about. It pays dividends in rehearsal, as I'm not stood about trying to work out what I want to play - I know already.

Am wondering what the balance is - how long people generally rehearse... and how people encourage their bandmates to practice also, so when we all come together we're just ironing out the creases of putting all the various bits back together.

I'm just not sure I can be going on like this. I wanted to thump the guitarist last night after the second hour of f***-all and fannying about - especially when I had the wife at home, about to jet off, and it would have been nice to have had some time with her before she went!

Thoughts, people?

[BigRedX]

Dick Venom has two types of rehearsal and we try and do at least one of each every week.

Songwriting - done at low volume normally at my house. Either the guitarist or myself has a rough idea for a song chord sequence or riff. Mr Venom goes through his stack of lyrics looking for something to fit and we get the bare bones or the song together.

Full band rehearsal. Here we work on two things. A quick run through any songs that seemed sloppy at the last gig to tighten them up maybe concentrating on specific parts that appear to need more work. Then work up the ideas from the most recent songwriting rehearsals into full band arrangements. There will normally be 2 or 3 songs that are at various stages of development before being ready to gig.

Also once a month we try and run through all the songs that we are currently still interested in playing even if they aren't part of the live set so that should we need to they can be performed at any gigs even if we haven't specifically planned on doing so.

[mike257]

I think if you're going to throw in new riffs all the time in rehearsal, at least one of you has to grab hold of it and give it some direction - we'll quite often write around a new riff on the spot, but you have to kick it into the shape of a song quickly. If we have an idea we really like, we're not against spending the bulk of the rehearsal getting it sorted, but the basic shape/structure of the tune has to comes pretty fast.

I think there's a lot of discipline in putting an idea down and moving on to something else if it isn't working. Sometimes it's best that you take those new ideas and work on them outside the time constraints of the rehearsal room, and sometimes it's better to come back to them another day with a fresh head. Jamming on something for three hours and not even having the bones of a song is a waste of expensive rehearsal time.

Is your guitarist coming up with these riffs on the spot, or has he thought them up at home, but just isn't very organised about presenting it to the band in a way that encourages you all to write around it?

Edited September 29, 2011 by mike257

[chris_b]

Who writes the songs? If the others can't be bothered to learn the numbers or play them properly, maybe they don't like them.

You need to clear the air and sort out what is wrong.

[FuNkShUi]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1317294825' post='1389102']

Songwriting - done at low volume normally at my house. Either the guitarist or myself has a rough idea for a song chord sequence or riff. Mr Venom goes through his stack of lyrics looking for something to fit and we get the bare bones or the song together.

Full band rehearsal. Here we work on two things. A quick run through any songs that seemed sloppy at the last gig to tighten them up maybe concentrating on specific parts that appear to need more work. Then work up the ideas from the most recent songwriting rehearsals into full band arrangements. There will normally be 2 or 3 songs that are at various stages of development before being ready to gig.
[/quote]

This is similar to what my cover band do. Two a fortnight usually. One where we all get together and go through any new songs acoustic stylee. This, like you said, avoids having people working out something to play when a full rehearsal happens.
Its the acoustic practice where any new riffs are played and worked on, or any new cover ideas are brought up and worked on. When the (paid for) full rehearsal happens, we go through any songs that wernt 100% tight as we'd of liked from the last gig, as the warm up. Then work on the new stuff, which we have already good a fairly good understanding of, so its only really tweaking, rather than full on organising who plays what etc. Saves time,money, and my ears!

[Gust0o]

[quote name='mike257' timestamp='1317295913' post='1389121']
Is your guitarist coming up with these riffs on the spot, or has he thought them up at home, but just isn't very organised about presenting it to the band in a way that encourages you all to write around it?
[/quote]

I would almost say it's a combination - they're not very well worked, so I'll find he's not fluent playing them; so we take a moment for him to work it out; and then some more time for me and the drummer to work out what we should be doing. I'd love to show a clip, but it's embarassing. He shouldn't be so f***ing amateurish at this point.

Thinking back to last night, when it became apparent his first riff idea would need some more work he just moved on to the next; and the next; so I think we left with five-or-so new riffs, none of which were recorded, and none of which he'll remember. Two of which I'm going to keep for myself and work on, as I think they could go somewhere with some effort. I think there's a learn in there for me - as I could have said something more productive; but chose to simply tell him I wasn't playing certain parts. Need to kick myself in the ass for that one, instead of taking charge I took a sulk!

In terms of writing, it's me and him - and that's not necessairly the two of us together. He's quite hard to pin down, so if I have an idea I'll just write the whole thing and bring it along when it's complete... at least complete in the sense that it's structured, has all the constituent parts, and I know it fluently.

We're, almost unintentionally, trying to conflate song-writing with general band rehearsals - the exact things you chaps are keeping separate! That could be a practical idea - though if he's still hard to pin down, is there much point?

On the subject of people not liking, we're usually pretty robust. The guitarist is probably the more precious of the bunch, but if we don't like we normally say. I think we, because we were trying new stuff, we weren't really feeding back whilst we tried to work out what it should sound like - very hard to comment if half built! Also, I think we might have some divergent ideas on what we should sound like - guitarist is happy with everything, he sees no limits; but I'd be happier if we said "we sound like this, this is us" until we get more established.

Am not beyond failings myself, I should point out.

[WalMan]

Just be glad they all turn up

Currently r/h with one of my part time bands is ALWAYS at least one member light

[mike257]

[quote name='Gust0o' timestamp='1317297729' post='1389155']

I would almost say it's a combination - they're not very well worked, so I'll find he's not fluent playing them; so we take a moment for him to work it out; and then some more time for me and the drummer to work out what we should be doing. I'd love to show a clip, but it's embarassing. He shouldn't be so f***ing amateurish at this point.

Thinking back to last night, when it became apparent his first riff idea would need some more work he just moved on to the next; and the next; so I think we left with five-or-so new riffs, none of which were recorded, and none of which he'll remember. Two of which I'm going to keep for myself and work on, as I think they could go somewhere with some effort. I think there's a learn in there for me - as I could have said something more productive; but chose to simply tell him I wasn't playing certain parts. Need to kick myself in the ass for that one, instead of taking charge I took a sulk!

In terms of writing, it's me and him - and that's not necessairly the two of us together. He's quite hard to pin down, so if I have an idea I'll just write the whole thing and bring it along when it's complete... at least complete in the sense that it's structured, has all the constituent parts, and I know it fluently.

We're, almost unintentionally, trying to conflate song-writing with general band rehearsals - the exact things you chaps are keeping separate! That could be a practical idea - though if he's still hard to pin down, is there much point?
[/quote]


There's nothing wrong with combining songwriting with 'general' rehearsals, and we don't draw any distinction in my band - when somebody's got an idea, we'll have a crack at it, or if something happens in the room, we'll run with it for a bit. It sounds like somebody (read: you, because bassists know best!) needs to just be assertive in driving it along from a riff into a coherent song. Is the idea a verse, a chorus, or just a riff? Where can it go next?

If you can quickly thrash out a basic song structure, then everyone has the opportunity to settle in to their parts within a couple of run throughs, and you can move on to fine tuning the little things like the transistions between sections when you've got the general shape of it together.

I think you should get out your 'producer' hat, pretend like it's pre-production for your mega album, and kick everybody into touch to focus on the writing process.

It's good that as a band you're quite open-minded about how your sound is developing - the more you write together and settle into a process thats working, the more you'll sound like 'you'. I've seen people boot too many good ideas without letting them develop to want to go down that road myself - it's better to let the sound come out of how you write, rather than trying to write to a particular sound!

[ironside1966]

It depends on what you want from the band, if you are planning on getting somewhere with the band it will be difficult with people who don’t put the work in.

[JTUK]

If it is not working, then wind it up.

[Gust0o]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1317301164' post='1389239']
If it is not working, then wind it up.
[/quote]

The one thing I'm reluctant to do, for all my whinging. I like the drummer, really like the drummer - we get things done! As there are three of us, all founding members, it does make it harder... unless I just quit. But then am not sure where I would go and who would have me

[JTUK]

My own view is that it is pointless perseversing with something that is too much hard work. Getting the band good is hard enough without the fundementals just happening.

I think you could back yourself and go and work with other players and keep this ticking over to see who drops off even more.
Getting out of the house and out of your own little playing circle is the hardest but most essential thing you should do.
How many times do you read band woes here...?? and why, because the options are limited..!!
The more people you know, the more people you can call on to get the right member..plus if you are in this circle, more people are actively doing stuff, and more opportunities crop up.
If you work within a county, then your name or goal should be getting around something like half of it.
That means you know guys in the next town who know of how to call you.. they see you out and about and therefore know what you kind of do...
But if this is a bit daunting as of now..the least you should be doing in getting into a circle in your own town..and then build it from there.
This takes time so start straight away.... but it is a numbers game.

I think you know who is playing about ..get them to know you and then build.

In your book should be a mimimum of 10 gtrs... and some of them will not be suitable at all for waht you are doing, but if they know 10 plus ...you get referred and onto a whole bunch of gtrs who will also know other players.

You should have you playing togther so when you get a chance to play... you should make an impression.

Network, network, network ..!! it is more important that your skill-set as some will be way above you and some way below... but you'll work through that quick enough, by being good at other things...transport, decent gear, good attitude, cool dude, etc etc

[rOB]

We do things a bit differently in my originals band. I am the primary song writer and lyricist so usually I will come to rehearsal with the structure and the bass, guitar and vocal parts written and then we'll work on it as a band until everyone's happy with it. Another thing we've started doing recently is our singer will send me some lyrics by email and I'll tweak them to fit with whatever music ideas I'm working on and bring it to rehearsal as a relatively finished song. The drummer comes up with his own parts on the spot during me teaching the guitar parts to the guitarist.

Wouldn't work for all bands but is currently working for us.

[arthurhenry]

It's a clash of different approaches/attitudes to music. If you want to be a musician, you play/practice everyday full stop. If it's just for fun, you don't need to do that. The trouble is, in the area between amatuer/semi pro/pro the two approaches sometimes mix.

[rOB]

[quote name='arthurhenry' timestamp='1317377584' post='1390008']
It's a clash of different approaches/attitudes to music. If you want to be a musician, you play/practice everyday full stop. If it's just for fun, you don't need to do that. The trouble is, in the area between amatuer/semi pro/pro the two approaches sometimes mix.
[/quote]

Mmm interesting point. When you say "musician" do you mean professional?

[Gust0o]

Oh, I should say I'm fully amateur... in the respect that I don't do it to earn my keep.

I'm just not amateur in my approach, however. Whilst I'm never going to be a musical theorist, I have some minimum standards - of which the above suggests simply practicing is definitely one!

Going to take onboard some of the above. I think we need to break the songwriting out of the rehearsals - either I'll do it; or I'll try and get me and the guitarist in the same room. But I want new ideas to now come into rehearsals with at least the skeleton in place, about which it will be easier to have some discipline.

I'm also going to pitch the idea of another guitarist, thinking mainly of the lead parts. Try and ease the burden on the current one, but insisting we all up our game and make the effort in our own time; including upping the rehearsals... it's once a fortnight on average now, and that's not working at all (was once a week)!

I'll let you know how I get on, but this has been a great thread full of ideas - I think I need to take charge more and start steering this thing.

Edited September 30, 2011 by Gust0o

[rOB]

[quote name='Gust0o' timestamp='1317378815' post='1390032']
I think I need to take charge more and start steering this thing.
[/quote]

Go for it. If you're not happy with how things are then make an effort to change the situation.

Good luck.

[arthurhenry]

[quote name='rOB' timestamp='1317378454' post='1390023']

Mmm interesting point. When you say "musician" do you mean professional?
[/quote]
Not neccessarily. You can still be dedicated and devoted to an instrument, be the best you can be and feel like a musician, even if you don't make a living at it. Or you can just do it for a laugh.

[mike257]

[quote name='Gust0o' timestamp='1317378815' post='1390032']
I think I need to take charge more and start steering this thing.
[/quote]

That's the winner right there - if nobody is doing that, then everything just drifts. You don't have to have somebody ruling with an iron fist, but somebody has got to steer the ship!