Should i tune slightly flat?

[digitalmetal]

Hi Ive just checked my intonation following this video:

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGfbebLI3pw"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGfbebLI3pw

A[/url]nd found something a bit odd, and am wondering if anyone can shed a little light on whats happening,

Im checking my 5 string ESP (Not LTD) Surveyor Bass and when i check the heavy B string and tune the harmonic then pluck the open note with my pick and it goes slightly sharp (just a couple of Cents and then comes to a solid B as the note rings out.

So i presume thats ok and in tune.

Then if i play the first fret (C) it goes sharp and the comes back to C after a second and this seems to be the case for any of the fretted notes,

I play quite fast aggressive metal and im wondering if i should tune slightly flat so that the note i strike is in tune rather that the second after i play the fretted note, or am i just worrying too much?

The reason this whole thing has come about is that when i play with my band something doesnt sound quite right, my guitarist insists that his guitar is in tune although im never going to really know for sure as he 's not that approachable to let me see myself.

I just want to be 100% sure its not me thats the problem

Thanks!

[EdwardHimself]

i doubt you're going to notice a couple of cents difference. My guess is that speaking of intonation, it might be the guitarists intonation that is out.

[BigRedX]

Does it sound out of tune when you play with other instruments?

[Guest bassman7755]

Fretted notes are always slightly sharp compared to open notes (and therefore also octive harmonics), this is because of the slight increase in tension required to fret the note.

Obviously the higher your action the more noticable the effect, also having a high cut nut makes it worse again. Make sure you have the lowest possibly nut cutting (should be the same as a fret) and the lowest possible action.

My status has a zero fret (hurrah ! - should be standard on all bases especially 5 stringers ...) and very low action such that the effect is almost undetectable. But I do sometimes tune the low B to a fretted note (say 5th fret) and put up with a very slightly flat open B since I dont play the open B very often and most peoples ears cant resolve frequencies that low with much accuracy anyway..

Edited September 29, 2011 by bassman7755

[icastle]

[quote name='digitalmetal' timestamp='1317299395' post='1389191']
Hi Ive just checked my intonation following this video:

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGfbebLI3pw"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGfbebLI3pw[/url]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGfbebLI3pw"]A[/url]nd found something a bit odd, and am wondering if anyone can shed a little light on whats happening,

Im checking my 5 string ESP (Not LTD) Surveyor Bass and when i check the heavy B string and tune the harmonic then pluck the open note with my pick and it goes slightly sharp (just a couple of Cents and then comes to a solid B as the note rings out.

So i presume thats ok and in tune.

Then if i play the first fret © it goes sharp and the comes back to C after a second and this seems to be the case for any of the fretted notes,

I play quite fast aggressive metal and im wondering if i should tune slightly flat so that the note i strike is in tune rather that the second after i play the fretted note, or am i just worrying too much?

The reason this whole thing has come about is that when i play with my band something doesnt sound quite right, my guitarist insists that his guitar is in tune although im never going to really know for sure as he 's not that approachable to let me see myself.

I just want to be 100% sure its not me thats the problem

Thanks!
[/quote]

If you start trying to tune flat to compensate for the initial harmonics seen by the guitar tuner then you will definately be out of tune.

The reporting of the initial 'deviation' caused by harmonics appears to vary from tuner to tuner - all I do with mine is ignore the initial '# burst' and then tune once the 'needle' has settled down.

Once I've tuned I know with 100% certainty that if anything sounds 'out' then it's certainly not me..

Make sure your intonation is set correctly (and check it again if you decide to use a different string gauge at a later date) and your action isn't set too high.

[Blademan_98]

or play a fretless....... and always be out of tune

(or is that just me?)

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1317302485' post='1389259']
Fretted notes are always slightly sharp compared to open notes... [/quote]
Sorry, but this is not correct. A fretted note can be flat or sharp depending upon the set-up of the intonation.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='digitalmetal' timestamp='1317299395' post='1389191']
Hi Ive just checked my intonation following this video:
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGfbebLI3pw"] [/url]

And found something a bit odd, and am wondering if anyone can shed a little light on whats happening,

Im checking my 5 string ESP (Not LTD) Surveyor Bass and when i check the heavy B string and tune the harmonic then pluck the open note with my pick and it goes slightly sharp (just a couple of Cents and then comes to a solid B as the note rings out.

So i presume thats ok and in tune.

Then if i play the first fret © it goes sharp and the comes back to C after a second and this seems to be the case for any of the fretted notes,

I play quite fast aggressive metal and im wondering if i should tune slightly flat so that the note i strike is in tune rather that the second after i play the fretted note, or am i just worrying too much?

The reason this whole thing has come about is that when i play with my band something doesnt sound quite right, my guitarist insists that his guitar is in tune although im never going to really know for sure as he 's not that approachable to let me see myself.

I just want to be 100% sure its not me thats the problem

Thanks!
[/quote]
Sounds to me like you need the intonation properly set-up. There are plenty of examples online of how to do it.

Try this one:
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIzV9462xeE[/media]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4MdWzN_100&feature=related[/media]

[EssentialTension]

... but never tune flat (or sharp).

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1317320009' post='1389505']
Sorry, but this is not correct. A fretted note can be flat or sharp depending upon the set-up of the intonation.
[/quote]

I was assuming a typical "correctly" adjusted intonation setup using open string/12th fret reference. Intonation which uses an[b] open string[/b]/fretted note comparison still results in all frets below the intonation reference fret being slightly sharp (sharp that is compared to the "in tune" reference fret and open string).

When you intone using open note (or octave harmonic) and the 12th fret, a small amount of extra string lenght is needed to compensate for the string tension increase caused by pressing to string onto the fret. However the compensating effect of the extra string length dies off as you move to lower frets making them sharp with respect to the intonation reference fret (and consequently the open note).

---

Just add that the effect almost unmeasurable on a well set up bass i.e. properly cut nut and lowest possible action. The OPs problems are most likely the result of a nut that is cut too high (as it is just on about every mass produced bass).

Edited September 29, 2011 by bassman7755

[digitalmetal]

Thanks everyone for your help, i still havent got to the bottom of what is wrong,
I had new set of strings spare here (A 4 string set of DR High Beam 45, 65, 85, 105's) and my bass is a 5 string, so in my lunch break today i went down to Denmark St and bought a single 130 B string (maybe a 125 would have been better but its all they had and id like my B to be a little less flappy so it made sense).

So the 4 higher string have intonated fine but this B string is confusing the hell out of me.

In order for it to be anywhere near intonated correctly i had to wind the saddle all the way up tight to the bridge and its still a fraction sharp.

Its a 34 inch scale bass and the B string i got was a RotoSound SBL130 whicj i gather is long scale (am i right in thinking a 34" scale is long scale?)

All the other saddles are sitting fairly similarly to heach other but this B looks way out of place.

If i measure from the nut to the saddle the B is more like 35" than 34"

Have i just bought the wrong kind of string or am i missing something else?

Also my saddles have V shaped notches in them i presume to accomodate different string sizes should i be filing the saddles out to suit the larger string guage?

Heres a pic of how its currently looking

[RhysP]

I had a similar issue with my Bogart 5 string.
When I got it the strings were far too light for me so I put a set of heavier ones on (45 -135 I think)
I had to pull the saddle right back on the B string to get the intonation correct, but it was fine with the lighter strings.
Try using a lighter string (maybe a 120) & see how it goes.

Also, when checking the intonation I wouldn't play the notes with a pick - you might be generating overtones that can confuse the tuner. Try using the fleshy side part of your thumb & don't play the note too hard.

Edited November 20, 2011 by RhysP

[BigRedX]

I can't see anything wrong with the position of the B string saddle in that photo, I'd be more worried about the A and the E saddles.

However in the end the position of the saddle doesn't matter so long its in the right place for the string to be in tune with its harmonic at the 12th fret.

So if the strings play in tune all the way up the neck, then the saddle positions are right. If not it may be that you have a duff set of strings.