urb Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 Hey folks I've been pretty busy of late so not had a lot of time for hanging on BC, thankfully I've been gigging and recording a bit and shedding a little too - so just thought I'd share my latest attempt at playing the old Coltrane changes - I have to admit it;s taken me a long time to feel comfortable on them and they're still very challenging but I think I'm slowly getting there - and I love playing my fretless... hope you enjoy and let me know what you think <br><br> Cheers <br><br> Mike <br><br> [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAjMEyIL3C8[/media] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcgraham Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 I can't watch it right now, but I wanted to assure you it'll get a watch as soon as I can. I'm sure it's going to be stellar, as are your usual video offerings. I like GS too, and similarly it's taken a while to feel comfortable with them. Some days there's a great flow and it feels effortless, some days things feel a more than a little bit more stilted and unnatural. Though I have personally found it a lot of fun just running bass lines over the changes, and that in turn helped me get my head 'into' the changes a bit more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urb Posted October 7, 2011 Author Share Posted October 7, 2011 Indeed - I have good days and bad days on this tune - I think this was one of the better ones, I wouldn't have recorded it if I was struggling with it - it's a hard tune to make 'musical' as you really don't get a lot of time to 'breathe' but I tried to do that here a bit more and play less runs and just follow my ear/instincts without getting too technical... it's a hard balance to get but at least my fretless has such a nice tone I can let that 'do the talking' sometimes - anyway let me know what you think - it's all still work in progress as they say... Cheers Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 Can't wait to hear it, Mike. I still can't make this tune sound like anything but running scales! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BottomE Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 That i enjoyed a lot. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 You could probably cut out about 50-60% of what you are doing and make the notes count more, Mike. Your solo doesn't start somewhere and go somewhere else, it just is. I remember someone once said to me 'deny yourself 3 times before you play something'. It prevents the musical diarrhoea (spelling block) we are all guilty of when we try and fill every space. Let the rhythm section speak and 'frame' your phrases (it even works on an Aebersold)! Tell a story, as Lester Young says. You are making the changes, no mean feat, but aren't letting your audience make them with you. Hope that doesn't come over as too brutal. You play great, mate, but a fast run sounds better if it isn't surrounded by other fast runs! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urb Posted October 7, 2011 Author Share Posted October 7, 2011 All good Rob - I totally agree with all that you say - this isn't really the best tune to do all that stuff on - though that sounds like an excuse - the downside of playing GS is you set yourself up for a fall for all the reasons you mention - even at a nice tempo the unrelenting changes tend to force me down certain strategies to get around the chords, I guess the main thing I fell like I achieved here was to stay relaxed and on top of the changes, but I feel I'd rather write my own more elegant less frantic changes to blow over... anyway thanks for the honest criticism it's very helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted October 8, 2011 Share Posted October 8, 2011 You notice I don't post my own version Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcgraham Posted October 8, 2011 Share Posted October 8, 2011 I'd probably say it could be pared back a bit too. There were a number of moments of 'oh I really liked that bit', but their impact could've been enhanced with more space either side of them and more space throughout in general. I totally appreciate how the complexity can force us to adopt certain strategies to get over them though. Out of interest, what do you tend to do/think of when approaching the changes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urb Posted October 8, 2011 Author Share Posted October 8, 2011 [quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1318059871' post='1397643'] You notice I don't post my own version [/quote] Well yeah I think the problem with this tune is that no matter how great I play it I'll be forever compared to X, Y or Z's version of - most like Pattitucci's though - so while I do appreciate the criticism a). I'd love to hear how you'd do all the things you suggest, and I'm just having a go... not all solos recorded in a 'home studio' environment are going to have the proper context of a real 'live' recording where if I was playing with a keyboard player and drummer etc I'd have other musical elements to respond to - hence the much needed space I should have added here would in theory be far more present - however pretty much all the other versions of Giant Steps I hear people play very much tend to follow this non-stop blowing template - so there you go. However I would say that I've already learnt a load of new things just from recording this and analysing my playing on this video and believe me I can hear what's good and bad - though it's certainly much better than I could play it a year ago for sure. I'd also add creating something truly poetic/musical in isolation with the red light on is tough, I just thought hey this is OK, let's see what others think... I hear all the criticism and I will continue working on these changes until I'm very old and grey, this was a snapshot of where I'm at now with them - hope that's cool with y'all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urb Posted October 8, 2011 Author Share Posted October 8, 2011 [quote name='mcgraham' timestamp='1318060547' post='1397649'] Out of interest, what do you tend to do/think of when approaching the changes? [/quote] I've increasinly tried to use a more 'cell' based approach to getting around scales/arppegios and that involves playing a lot of 6ths, 3rds and 4ths, then I tend to focus on common tones between the keys to link ideas - I'm also trying to play more stuff in one position, or move up and down the neck on just one string again trying to link each idea chromatically. Then other times I just try and play with phrasing kind of floating other changes, or just take one lick/idea and keep it moving through all the chords/scales... all the usual stuff really - I've seen a couple of other really great performances of this tune which combines lots of other ideas - it's just endless really - I need to go and shed some more now! Thanks for watching and checking it out - and I'd love to hear some of your stuff sometime - please post something too Cheers Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcgraham Posted October 8, 2011 Share Posted October 8, 2011 [quote name='urb' timestamp='1318076257' post='1397849']I've increasinly tried to use a more 'cell' based approach to getting around scales/arppegios and that involves playing a lot of 6ths, 3rds and 4ths, then I tend to focus on common tones between the keys to link ideas - I'm also trying to play more stuff in one position, or move up and down the neck on just one string again trying to link each idea chromatically. Then other times I just try and play with phrasing kind of floating other changes, or just take one lick/idea and keep it moving through all the chords/scales... all the usual stuff really - I've seen a couple of other really great performances of this tune which combines lots of other ideas - it's just endless really - I need to go and shed some more now![/quote] Thanks for sharing. I find the cell-based approach quite difficult to do live myself... good practice tool as I find it quite restrictive, but I find my playing a bit stilted and unnatural if I try to do it live. That's my own difficulty though. I also do the common tone approach, but with GS it just seems to fly by in such a way it's really easy to lose your place. I find the more favourable results seem to come with a blend of keeping a general track of the changes, hearing where things are going, and playing with the shape of a melody over the top, e.g. trusting that you'll respond to particular notes with some resolution or tension can create something melodic but rhythmically interesting. [quote]Thanks for watching and checking it out - and I'd love to hear some of your stuff sometime - please post something too[/quote] Thanks for posting it up. It's a real testament to your character as a musician that you're cool with sticking stuff up on the web and opening yourself up to critiquing. This is something I would like to do more of and am looking into a way to video myself. I'll see if I can take a pass at GS later today - it'll just be audio though as my laptop camera is not good at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urb Posted October 8, 2011 Author Share Posted October 8, 2011 Having said all that I'm still not very good at it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcgraham Posted October 8, 2011 Share Posted October 8, 2011 Right - done a take. One take, no overdubs, bass set flat, no eq on anything. Some bits I really like, some bits not so keen on, couple of flubs, but overall I like the take It's what I would've done if shoved into a jam situation with no notice. let me know what you think, positive and negative are welcome as we're all friends here! [url="http://soundcloud.com/mcgrahamhk/giant-steps-mcgraham"]http://soundcloud.com/mcgrahamhk/giant-steps-mcgraham[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urb Posted October 8, 2011 Author Share Posted October 8, 2011 [quote name='mcgraham' timestamp='1318084129' post='1397939'] Right - done a take. One take, no overdubs, bass set flat, no eq on anything. Some bits I really like, some bits not so keen on, couple of flubs, but overall I like the take It's what I would've done if shoved into a jam situation with no notice. let me know what you think, positive and negative are welcome as we're all friends here! [url="http://soundcloud.com/mcgrahamhk/giant-steps-mcgraham"]http://soundcloud.co...-steps-mcgraham[/url] [/quote] Firstly the bass sounds wicked - first time I've heard you W&T beast and I like it - lovely modern tone with character - the sign of a good custom instrument for sure - secondly some bits a really good but ironically I think it's where you start burning at double time when you sound your most confident and your playing is at its strongest - the weaker bits for me were the melodic ideas and obviously where you took a few bars out to decide what to do next, obviously this is what I do most of the time when I'm practicing! You can obviously play and have superb technique - some of the melodic bits were really lovely but I didn't feel they then connected to something afterwards, you just switched from playing half time phrases to serious burning lines - if you can build some phrases to connect these to ideas then you're onto a winner... overall well done for posting something - it's a bugger of a tune to really know what to do with - I find even Coltrane's original a bit robotic, while the rest of the band are kind of trailing in his wake - as they all found it so hard to be creative with it. One of the best versions I've ever heard played by a bassist is on an album by an fantastic player called Frode Berg, the album's called Dig It! - it's well worth checking out as he plays it in 7/4 and then tears the backside out of the solo on 6 string - it's amazing: [url="http://itunes.apple.com/us/album/sir-nuke/id285576988?i=285577048"]http://itunes.apple....988?i=285577048[/url] The funnny thing is Frode is now in one of the best new piano trios around today from Norway called the Helge Lein Trio - where he plays upright bass all the time and hardly ever solos - Check out the album Hello Troll it's really good: http://www.ozellamusic.com/366.0.html TBH I think everyone has a Giant Steps phase and it's a tune we all love to hate but still want to play - so kudos to Coltrane for kicking our butts all these years later! Good work on posting something - I would love to hear more of your playing/music - you sound great. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcgraham Posted October 8, 2011 Share Posted October 8, 2011 Thanks bud, I appreciate the feedback and encouragement! I take onboard what you're saying about the somewhat fragmented melodic ideas, particularly with regards to the confidence in putting the melodies out there. I like to think melody is an area of strength for me in general, but I will be honest and say I struggle with finding an overarching theme to Giant Steps within which I can throw the ideas I have. I have no sonic grievances with the dischord and shifting key centres technically per se, but the overall 'sound' of Giant Steps (to my ears) is like a playground full of children going 'nyah nyah nyah nyah nyaaaaah'. Though I'm a tough person to please I will say I enjoy listening back to the melodic fragments of that take. So in that regard I'm pleased, but your comments and preferences are also equally valid (if not moreso as an experienced listener and player!) so in that respect I'll have a think about working on integrating the fast and slow in my practice time. Thanks also for the comments on the bass and faster playing. Incidentally I 'climaxed' (oo-er matron) at the 2 minute mark, at that point I was just thinking *oh FFS this backing track is so Fing boring and repetitive... and there's STILL 2 minutes left... do I have to keep going... oh, have I stopped?... oh bugger... c'mon, find SOMETHING to play Mark* I did do something in those bars but it wasn't jumping out in the mix there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted October 9, 2011 Share Posted October 9, 2011 Some great learning coming out of this thread. See what happens when we can have a adult discussion about the music instead of everyone just being 'nice' and 'polite'? Mike should be congratulated on having the courage to post a work in progress. Its encouraging to hear how people learn and not just seeing polished and perfect renditions. I think it is important to acknowledge how difficult this set of changes is. Unlike most standards, you can't 'busk' this one until the two odd chords appear. It kills every cliche you have and forces you to find an intelligent way of processing the changes. There is nowhere to hide. Coltrane spent two years learning to play over these. I am not altogether sure I want ot spend that much time on a set of changes I am not that fond of!! I think McG has a point too. Aebersolds force us to play longer solos than we would in the real world and so we are forced into the diarrhoea mode. There is a book out there full of transcriptions of the various versions of the track Coltrane recorded. Maybe we should be asking a sax player how s/he works these changes, rather than bass players? I'd love to post my version of this but I suspect it will be a while before I can find something to play on these changes that is worthy of a public airing. Not heard the guys you talk about, Mike. Will look them up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urb Posted October 9, 2011 Author Share Posted October 9, 2011 All good Rob, I agree about not having the time or energy to really put in the hours to completely get on top of this tune - there's more to life than Giant Steps! Which is why I recorded this video when I felt I was more in the zone than usual - anyway don't worry about posting something you've nothing to prove as a player, I guess nor have I but hey it's fun to try this stuff - I find the whole bebop side things hard to really sound fluid on but I'm not going to stress over it :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 I spent some time on Saturday looking at this tune. I programmes the chords into Band in a Box andplayed along. As I started to explore the changes, I realised that there are essentially only three key centres, B, G and Eb (all a major third apart instead of the usual fourths). The changes are all ii V Is modulating to the new key. Once I got my hea/ear around that, my solos started to begin to make at least a little sense.... ...at 80 bpm I then got out the Aebersold and tried to play along - no chance. Its not the changes that make it hard, its the changes AT THAT TEMPO and (Mike & Mark will know what I mean) [i]I was playing along with the SLOW version.[/i] The fast version was never going to happen. Whatever else, it was nice to get the brain working. When you do a lot of standards gigs, like I do, its easy to walk into the trap of the same old same old (jazzers have their own 'Mustang Sally's' and 'Good Times' and are as guilty as anyone of building sets based on the path of least resistance). So its nice to be reminded that there are still challenges out there. Great fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urb Posted October 11, 2011 Author Share Posted October 11, 2011 Hey Rob - that's the point of this tune I think - it's all about solving this 'problem' changes at tempo - it's a bugger... re the Aebersold playalongs - I just found one that's at a tempo I like, the one I'm playing along with in the video, there's a very slow one which is cool but a bit too slow, and then there's a horribly fast one that is so ridiculously fast that it kills any kind of enjoyment in trying to play this tune 'musically' and becomes all about speed - which is BS in my book - no one I know or have heard play GS in the recent past plays it THAT fast, there's no point - Gary Willis plays it beautifully (of course) but it's no faster than the one I posted - listen to the master at work here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApNclh-3Pak Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 Downloaded Frode Berg's Dig IT yesterday!! 7:4, FFS!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcgraham Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 (edited) Would you guys be up for exchanging takes every so often? For example, once a week/fortnight/month, whatever is convenient we name a piece and we each post up our own take at that piece? Edited October 12, 2011 by mcgraham Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urb Posted October 13, 2011 Author Share Posted October 13, 2011 [quote name='mcgraham' timestamp='1318426196' post='1401990'] Would you guys be up for exchanging takes every so often? For example, once a week/fortnight/month, whatever is convenient we name a piece and we each post up our own take at that piece? [/quote] Sounds good to me - except I am a little hesitant to post them via Youtube as I try and exercise a little quality control on my own channel - I don't mind sharing stuff here for the sake of exchanging ideas etc - I think we can upload movie clips via the new Basschat CMS can't we? Obviously they don't have to be video I guess - in principal it sounds cool. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcgraham Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Sure Mike, I totally understand. I'm actually thinking of starting doing videos myself and I'm becoming acutely aware that the quality of one's online presence is so important from day-one and every day thereafter. Perhaps audio only is most practical for those reasons, and also as it requires less time set aside to put together a take. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 I couldn't do video anyway so its audio only for me. I did an hour on it last night and am starting to make progress but still not ready for a public airing. I have played it live in the past (a long time ago) and wonder how the hell I got away with it (I probably didn't but people are polite, aren't they!). Anyway, its not the destination that matters but the journey. There is a lot of learning going on at Bag End at the moment! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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