mcgraham Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 (edited) As per the discussion in the Giant Steps thread started by urb, I have done another 'one take wonder' (flubs and all!) this time on 'Blue Bossa'. Please check it out and let me know what you think: [url="http://soundcloud.com/mcgrahamhk/blue-bossa-improv"]http://soundcloud.co...ue-bossa-improv[/url] I edited down the backing track to just be 4 'rounds' of the sections - let me know if you want it if you want to have a go at this. Like my Giant Steps Improv (check it out [url="http://soundcloud.com/mcgrahamhk/giant-steps-mcgraham"]here[/url]), this was the first and only take done in one complete swoop. For those that care, the bass is set so that both pickups are in single coil mode (hence a slight hum to the eagle-eared), bright boost engaged, slight bass boost and slight mid scoop as I wanted a sizzly 70s jazz bass sound on this one. Hope you enjoy! Please leave a comment! Edited October 14, 2011 by mcgraham Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Comment posted, Mark. Can get my own version of this one up quickly so watch this space! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcgraham Posted October 14, 2011 Author Share Posted October 14, 2011 Cheers Rob. I appreciate the honest and direct feedback. Re: rhythm - the point that I can pick out as being wavering at the expense of the momentum (to an extent that I'm not so happy with it) is around 1m50s. Other than that, I'll bear your comments in mind for next time. TBH though, this [i]was[/i] totally off the cuff akin to doing it live and in one go... with that in mind I'm not complaining about that. Re: wrong notes - though there are a few in there where I definitely hit a dodgy one, there's a number of others that could be perceived as 'wrong' but that I did put in there because I like the sound of those notes, odd or not. I don't say that in a defensive manner, or as an excuse, as you're entitled to your preferences and I welcome the opinions, but I can tell you now that a lot of my improvised stuff will have some quite 'out-there' note choices if I have the free choice to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urb Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 Hey Mark It sounds good overall - my constructive advice/criticism would be that overall - in spite of great technique etc - I would say there's a feeling of hesitancy in your playing that sounds like you are being overaly cautious - Dizzy Gillespie famously said 'don't let a few wrong notes get in the way of a good solo' and that would be my advice to you is give your playing a bit more conviction - I like the tones and the chords but for me you could take a phrase and develop it and build up to the faster lick-type stuff. All those classic bits of advice like tell a story or give you solo a narrative arc - so that you start and end strongly with some bold melodic phrases - will help. Gary Willis has also said you need to practice coming out of your solo and switching back into 'bass mode' is also something worth bearing in mind - I say all these things as it's all stuff I'm working on too. Lastly I'd say it's all very well going "this is a single take just like on a jam session" but in actual fact on a jam you would have been playing the bass line for 5 minutes or whatever before you solo, so in a way you would already be warmed up into the structure of the song and more importantly the groove. I really don't have a problem with you warming up and getting into the vibe of the tune, even submitting a third or fourth take if that's when you really hit your stride on it - this stuff takes a hell of a lot of practice before it all starts to come together - and I've had plenty of jam session 'fails' too where I just wasn't on it at all - or other times where I've done stuff that surprised even me... so I wouldn't put yourself in too much of an artificial situation - get into the tune and really get the creativity flowing - te deeper I've dug into a tune the better the results - sometimes that means expelling the excess note-age before really getting the heart of the matter Hope all that's cool - I'll try and post something soon too Cheers Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcgraham Posted October 15, 2011 Author Share Posted October 15, 2011 (edited) Thanks for the honest feedback. If you guys want more polished takes then I'm happy to oblige. I look forward to hearing both of your takes in due course! Edited October 15, 2011 by mcgraham Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BottomE Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 wow an intelligent conversation on Basschat some great advice though of which i am taking note. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 Here we go, into the lion's den! Bass solo starts at 1.54. I am playing the guitar on this track also so no taking the p*** (yes, it is slightly out of tune....) http://soundcloud.com/robert-palmer-1/sets/basschatters-revenge/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 Just realised Mark and I have used a different Aebersold and mine is twice as fast! Sorry mate. Will try and fine the slower one as it is harder to play! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcgraham Posted October 15, 2011 Author Share Posted October 15, 2011 [size=1]Yikes! That guitar really is [i]butt-clenchingly[/i] out of tune. [/size] Really driving there Rob. I was going to use the word 'swinging' but that has other connotations that I don't mean. I really like the momentum you imparted to the overall piece. I also liked some of the subtle ways you departed from the straighter timing of the majority of your solo for rhythmic tension and release. I could also see/feel how the solo progressed and changed shape at points. My main comment is that it felt really stiff, rigid, and homogenous throughout. Don't get me wrong, I liked it... but when I got to the end and wanted to say which specific bits I liked, I realised there wasn't anything that stood out to me as a high or a low, or as a nice bit of melody or significant movement. This might be a preference thing when it comes to melody and shape, it just seemed to lack discernible or memorable features to the solo - no landmark moments or remarkable features to my ears. Rhythmically it had great feel, but as a whole it seemed so stiff and rigid all the way through that the straightness of it just became fatiguing on the ear towards the end. Even the slight departures from straight rhythmic note values were incredibly slight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcgraham Posted October 15, 2011 Author Share Posted October 15, 2011 [url="http://www.jamtracks.ru/mpjam/Jazz/Bluebossa.mp3"]mp3[/url] There's a link to the slower Blue Bossa I used. If you want the abbreviated/edited version I used just let me know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BottomE Posted October 16, 2011 Share Posted October 16, 2011 Bilbo - thats great! Enjoyed it very much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted October 16, 2011 Share Posted October 16, 2011 I know what you mwan about the homeogeneity, Mark. Its the old diarrhoea thing!! Will try again on the slower one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcgraham Posted October 16, 2011 Author Share Posted October 16, 2011 Sure. I'd say that the homogeneity was more to do with the rigid 8th note pattern that created that really stiff feel rather than the note choice per se. With some more variation and some added space even the notes that were there could've been shaped into something with greater highs and lows. Unrelenting 8ths is akin to all the 80s shredder who used to alternate pick 16th/32nd notes constantly over every bar for 40 bars at a time, only occasionally dropping one or two for a cliched bend or dive bomb. There's nothing wrong with the notes they chose per se, but the rise and fall of any melody that might have been in there was muted by the rigidity of the rhythm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urb Posted October 16, 2011 Share Posted October 16, 2011 Rob - I realy liked most of that - the guitar work in spite of being slightly out of tune was great, I actually thought you soloed better on the guitar *eeek!* - but the bass work was great too - could have been a bit freer though and more fluid - I'm sure you solo less rigidly on a gig, this is a weird 'bedoroom' or 'office' in my case situation - anyway all good and thanks for posting - see my latest effort below. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urb Posted October 16, 2011 Share Posted October 16, 2011 Well I just played a brilliant gig last night at the Pizza Express jazz club in Soho with my nine-piece jazz funk band - it all cae together beautifully and there was some ferocious playing going on from some of the horn players and the rhythm section was burning it was sooo much fun - plus is was rammed and the crowd loved it... so I'm still feeling a little buzzy from that today. I only mention this as I still have a lot of the horn players phrasing floating around my ears - so here's my realtively off the off cuff attempt at Blue Bossa - this was a single take - but I decided to start and end with the bass line as like I said on this thread earlier I think it helps contextualise the start and end of a bass solo - I think I probably went on one chorus too long but really just tried to play honestly and instinctively and really vary rhythm and dynamics and the 'STFU' after a few chorus - hope you like it - let me know what you think. Cheers Mike http://soundcloud.com/munkio/blue-bossa-fretless-bass-solo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urb Posted October 16, 2011 Share Posted October 16, 2011 Hey Mark - just listening to your version again and there's some lovely phrasing in there - I stand by my comments from before but it's a very nice solo overall - I think you could go for it a bit more but you actually did a very good job of playing for the 'mood' of the backing without being over indulgent - good work - why not try the faster one as well - I can send you the MP3 if you like - let me know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted October 16, 2011 Share Posted October 16, 2011 I think we all need producers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcgraham Posted October 16, 2011 Author Share Posted October 16, 2011 Thanks Mike, I appreciate it. I was very much trying to play for the piece and maintaining the integrity of how chilled that was rather than make it into something it was not, which may well have resulted in a more subdued solo than the Giant Steps rendition. I like how burpy an growly your fretless tone is on the recording! I think some of it was the chorus and the reverb but it really brought out the character of the bass. One thing that did stand out to me was the 'blooming' of the notes, which sounds great on the longer note values, but this meant that a lot of the faster passages had a substantial volume drop and just seemed to drop out of earshot compared to held notes. I'm not sure whether a compressor at least on the final recording would help with that, but I would've liked to be able to pick out the phrasing in the faster passages a bit better. I've listened back a few more times before posting, and you know what... I'm really hearing Tom Kennedy in your playing! I don't know whether that's intentional, but the sound and the phrasing (particularly the flowing feeling between 1.35 and 1.55) reeeeally really reminds me of Kennedy's electric bass sound and style. It's got that fluidity and relaxed elements, but enough space and feel to lock in... for that, my hat is tipped to you! I can also hear the bold melodic phrasing you were talking about, particularly at the beginning, as that segues from the bassline to the solo nicely, and then you can hear how it builds (particularly towards that portion from 1.35-1.55) then segues back into more restrained playing, then back into the bassline... so overall a really pleasing progression with a discernable shape from beginning to middle to end. Though I wouldn't have said anything melodic struck me with a 'wow' factor, I do really like that as a piece of music. Well done! I've found a link to a few faster versions so I'll throw one together later. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urb Posted October 16, 2011 Share Posted October 16, 2011 [quote name='mcgraham' timestamp='1318778934' post='1406083'] Thanks Mike, I appreciate it. I was very much trying to play for the piece and maintaining the integrity of how chilled that was rather than make it into something it was not, which may well have resulted in a more subdued solo than the Giant Steps rendition. I like how burpy an growly your fretless tone is on the recording! I think some of it was the chorus and the reverb but it really brought out the character of the bass. One thing that did stand out to me was the 'blooming' of the notes, which sounds great on the longer note values, but this meant that a lot of the faster passages had a substantial volume drop and just seemed to drop out of earshot compared to held notes. I'm not sure whether a compressor at least on the final recording would help with that, but I would've liked to be able to pick out the phrasing in the faster passages a bit better. I've listened back a few more times before posting, and you know what... I'm really hearing Tom Kennedy in your playing! I don't know whether that's intentional, but the sound and the phrasing (particularly the flowing feeling between 1.35 and 1.55) reeeeally really reminds me of Kennedy's electric bass sound and style. It's got that fluidity and relaxed elements, but enough space and feel to lock in... for that, my hat is tipped to you! I can also hear the bold melodic phrasing you were talking about, particularly at the beginning, as that segues from the bassline to the solo nicely, and then you can hear how it builds (particularly towards that portion from 1.35-1.55) then segues back into more restrained playing, then back into the bassline... so overall a really pleasing progression with a discernable shape from beginning to middle to end. Though I wouldn't have said anything melodic struck me with a 'wow' factor, I do really like that as a piece of music. Well done! I've found a link to a few faster versions so I'll throw one together later. Mark [/quote] Cool man thanks - re Tom Kenedy I really love his playing but any similarity here is purely coincidental - I guess the thing I was feeling earlier when I played this was sort of about remembering the momentum having a real drummer (as opposed to a loop or backing track) playing behind you is that they always give you a musical kick up the behind, but they also help give you some more elasticity in your rhythmic phrasing etc - anyway I guess some of the things that came out in my solo were obviously drawn from lots of the stuff I've played/practiced/heard from lots of other players - I also like your comment about it being "a piece of music" - I think it's all too easy when playing jazz to fall back on the theory and forget about what the listener might be hearing - so it's often a good idea to 'forget' all the technical/theorehtical stuff and just play what you are feeling - that said the perfect balance mentally is when the theory knowledge kicks in from time to time but doesn't overtake where you ears and the vibe of the song is taking your improvisation. Willis again says he likes to play when he's a bit sleepy as he's less inclined to 'over think' what he's playing - I was pretty knackered this morning when I played this solo but I was still feeling the music from the night before - it's not perfect but I'm happy with the 'intention' behind what I played - it's not always right but some days you hit the flow and that when all this stuff comes together. The secret is separating practicing music and making music - there is a big difference - the latter is all about following your instincts and totally committing yourself - mistakes and all - to the cause of creating something worth listening to! I'm loving this new way of compairing and contrasting jazz solos etc - if anyone else wants to join in please do - it's what we should have been doing a long time ago quite frankly. Good work guys Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcgraham Posted October 16, 2011 Author Share Posted October 16, 2011 Right. Felt crap this afternoon so came back to it this evening. Faster version of Blue Bossa for your listening pleasure, complete with some melodic motifs and even a bass breakdown! [url="http://soundcloud.com/mcgrahamhk/fast-blue-bossa-improv"]http://soundcloud.com/mcgrahamhk/fast-blue-bossa-improv[/url] Mike, I've tried to take your comments into account regarding getting a strong melody in from the start, then using that as a 'seed' on which to evolve the improv, then finishing strong as well. I like to think this is sounding more 'complete' as a piece than the other submissions. Let me know what you think. Mark P.S. I definitely think we should've done this sooner. Iron sharpens iron and all that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted October 16, 2011 Share Posted October 16, 2011 Great backing track on that one, Mark, and you sound better for it - am loving that tempo! As a contrast, here's my slow one! I couldn't get the mp3 downloaded so had to make my own backing track so apologies for the cheesiness. http://soundcloud.com/robert-palmer-1/sets/basschatters-revenge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcgraham Posted October 16, 2011 Author Share Posted October 16, 2011 (edited) Thanks Rob! I can say the same for you. That slow one (despite the initial cheesiness when it first starts) really seemed to bring out your melodic side - your playing seemed to indicate you were really comfortable with that sort of speed, like you just [i]knew[/i] exactly what you could bring to it and how to explore different nuances of the piece without running out of ideas... and you did play the whole thing without eschewing nonsense (I thought)! My gosh I loved your use of space in there. You were totally unafraid to leave these huge rests, and the way you placed them said as much as the stuff either side of them. There was a really nice rhythmic evolution throughout as well, tied up with simple melodic variation. What you did with it reminded me of how Barber, in his 3rd excursion, plays about 6 or 7 variations on a theme with different time signatures in each, and modifies it throughout each such that it changes shape but never becomes unforgettable as where it came from. Nice work! I think we might each be getting somewhere already. Good work! Edited October 16, 2011 by mcgraham Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted October 16, 2011 Share Posted October 16, 2011 Its strange to admit that the gaps are what makes it harder to play but easier to listen to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcgraham Posted October 16, 2011 Author Share Posted October 16, 2011 I'll be honest, I was surprised that you and Mike didn't use them more when I listened to your renditions. Mike's GS and your first fast BB rendition just seemed relentless with next to no space or breathing room for the piece as a whole... which is fine for basslines but not for solos (IMO). As I'm sure you'll agree, playing relentlessly without rests is akin to people who talk lots but truly say so very little. Rests let the piece breathe and lets whatever else you've played find somewhere to rest in the listener's mind... in the same way if you were doing a talk you would have pauses to let the point you've just made sink in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urb Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Hi Mark Just wanted to say Ireally enjoyd your new BB fast take - you nailed that - really engaging solo and all points present and correct - well done man - and Rob I'll have a listen to your slow version later - gotta work now! Cheers Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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