EssentialTension Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 [quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1324056814' post='1470451'] Again I wonder how hard they would be to make? ..... [/quote] Again, I'll take two when they are ready. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFRC Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 [quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1324063383' post='1470559'] Again, I'll take two when they are ready. [/quote] ...I was actually thinking through projects after my masters... maybe it could be interesting to try Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beer of the Bass Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 One of the bits that makes them particularly complex and expensive to make is the polepiece adjustment mechanism, which doesn't really affect the sound AFAIK. Otherwise they're arranged like a guitar P90, except with a laminated steel core through which the polepieces pass. I wouldn't be surprised if someone started making a functional equivalent without necessarily copying the adjuster mechanism and cosmetics. They wouldn't have any problem shifting them if they did, especially if they were sized to fit in existing soapbar routes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1324067693' post='1470617'] One of the bits that makes them particularly complex and expensive to make is the polepiece adjustment mechanism, which doesn't really affect the sound AFAIK. Otherwise they're arranged like a guitar P90, except with a laminated steel core through which the polepieces pass. I wouldn't be surprised if someone started making a functional equivalent without necessarily copying the adjuster mechanism and cosmetics. They wouldn't have any problem shifting them if they did, especially if they were sized to fit in existing soapbar routes. [/quote] I'm not an engineer so I wouldn't strictly know if it was a functional equivalent but the Lakland/Hanson Chisonics were designed to replace Dark Stars in Lakland Decade basses because Fred Hammon couldn't make Dark Stars fast enough for Lakland. The Chisonics do have some of the sound qualities of the Dark Stars and the Bisonics. Edited December 16, 2011 by EssentialTension Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFRC Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 http://bassoutpost.com/index.php?topic=6269.0 someone made one... or attempted.... daft question- I know what laminated steel is- but what does this 'core' look like? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beer of the Bass Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 If Hammon's website is still up, there was a picture of the individual parts laid out. Basically, the centre of the pickup is made of a number of thin layers of steel stacked up. The laminations are parallel to the face of the pickup and each layer has four holes for the polepieces to pass through. I think it's much like the material transformer cores are made from. So still a bit more going on than most pickups... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 [quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1324069283' post='1470642'] If Hammon's website is still up ... [/quote] [url="http://www.hammoneng.com/index.htm"]http://www.hammoneng.com/index.htm[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 (edited) Edited December 16, 2011 by EssentialTension Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFRC Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 [quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1324069283' post='1470642'] If Hammon's website is still up, there was a picture of the individual parts laid out. Basically, the centre of the pickup is made of a number of thin layers of steel stacked up. The laminations are parallel to the face of the pickup and each layer has four holes for the polepieces to pass through. I think it's much like the material transformer cores are made from. So still a bit more going on than most pickups... [/quote] ah found the picture..... and the windings are around the laminations? or above? what do they do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry norton Posted December 17, 2011 Author Share Posted December 17, 2011 [quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1324056814' post='1470451'] Again I wonder how hard they would be to make? ..... [/quote] Yeah I took some measurements and notes a while back with just that in mind. All in I can't see anything particularly tricky other than just getting all the bits together to get it done. If you had the facilities like a lathe, a press and a pillar drill you could probably make it totally from scratch but it would take an age to do just one. I'm assuming Fred had his steel laminations punched out and his pole pieces machined up for him, leaving him free to concentrate on assembly. That means needing some spare cash to invest in having parts made in some numbers, so you'd need to be sure it was right and would work beforehand. That said, I've heard the Dark Stars sound is quite a way off the original Bi-Sonic sound, so maybe Fred just did it the way he thought was best rather than slavishly copying every detail. Let's face it, with Dark Stars it's as much about the looks as it is about the sound Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFRC Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 [quote name='henry norton' timestamp='1324118860' post='1470929'] Yeah I took some measurements and notes a while back with just that in mind. All in I can't see anything particularly tricky other than just getting all the bits together to get it done. If you had the facilities like a lathe, a press and a pillar drill you could probably make it totally from scratch but it would take an age to do just one. I'm assuming Fred had his steel laminations punched out and his pole pieces machined up for him, leaving him free to concentrate on assembly. That means needing some spare cash to invest in having parts made in some numbers, so you'd need to be sure it was right and would work beforehand. That said, I've heard the Dark Stars sound is quite a way off the original Bi-Sonic sound, so maybe Fred just did it the way he thought was best rather than slavishly copying every detail. Let's face it, with Dark Stars it's as much about the looks as it is about the sound [/quote] See the looks are the one thing I'm not keen on- I don't know why it has to be so big. Like if the steel pole pieces were threaded and so was... I guess one of the laminations so it was adjustable that way. What you would need... steel rod (6mm?) 2x alinco magnets something to make the bobbin out of (right word?) wire steel strips- drilled and something to laminate them with casing of some kind- plastic I guess patience and practice. Apart from knowing where to get the magnets from (and I did find a supplier in germany last year but can't remember where) that looks do able. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beer of the Bass Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 From what I can recall (I don't have mine anymore), the laminated steel core sits between the two magnets, rather than passing through the coil. Personally, I wouldn't bother with the adjustable poles - they're necessary on the Darkstar as the overall height is not adjustable, but fixed poles plus overall height adjustment works fine for the vast majority of bass pickups. Good luck getting something together - a design like this is probably not the easiest way to get started in pickup making, as there are few manufactured parts available, but that's not to say it would be impossible Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry norton Posted December 17, 2011 Author Share Posted December 17, 2011 [quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1324120686' post='1470962'] See the looks are the one thing I'm not keen on- I don't know why it has to be so big. Like if the steel pole pieces were threaded and so was... I guess one of the laminations so it was adjustable that way. [/quote] Yeah, that could work. The adjustable poles are pretty similar to the old DeArmond single coils fitted to Gretsch guitars in the fifties, which were needed because the DeArmond's poles were actual magnets, which can't be threaded. Maybe the DarkStar poles were adjusted this way because they were in some kind of iron that's difficult to thread - if they were just bog standard steel they could be threaded easily like you suggest which would probably halve the cost of the pickup. Pole adjusters asides, the DarkStar isn't that dissimilar to a P90 - easy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 [quote name='henry norton' timestamp='1324118860' post='1470929'] ... I've heard the Dark Stars sound is quite a way off the original Bi-Sonic sound, so maybe Fred just did it the way he thought was best rather than slavishly copying every detail. Let's face it, with Dark Stars it's as much about the looks as it is about the sound [/quote] The Dark Star sound is not that far off the Bisonics and I'd say it was the sound that mattered most, not the looks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry norton Posted December 17, 2011 Author Share Posted December 17, 2011 [quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1324129809' post='1471112'] The Dark Star sound is not that far off the Bisonics and I'd say it was the sound that mattered most, not the looks. [/quote] I s'pose it's down to the listener (I can't tell much difference). I like the sound too but I like the fact that they're not soapbar, P, J or MM shaped more... I like mudbuckers, wide-range Fenders and chrome T.Birds too so I'm kind of prejudiced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 [quote name='henry norton' timestamp='1324150372' post='1471354'] I s'pose it's down to the listener (I can't tell much difference). I like the sound too but I like the fact that they're not soapbar, P, J or MM shaped more... I like mudbuckers, wide-range Fenders and chrome T.Birds too so I'm kind of prejudiced. [/quote] I didn't mean to suggest that the looks didn't matter. There was definitely some nostalgia for the oddness of the looks but always, I think, alongside the sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krysh Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 [quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1324129809' post='1471112'] The Dark Star sound is not that far off the Bisonics and I'd say it was the sound that mattered most, not the looks. [/quote] here is a clip with the bridge bisonic of my 1965 guild starfire, this is what the dark stars should sound like, only a bit hotter: [url="http://snd.sc/iD9Nk0"]http://snd.sc/iD9Nk0[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 [quote name='the_krysh' timestamp='1324154259' post='1471397'] here is a clip with the bridge bisonic of my 1965 guild starfire, this is what the dark stars should sound like, only a bit hotter: [url="http://snd.sc/iD9Nk0"]http://snd.sc/iD9Nk0[/url] [/quote] Very nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krysh Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 [quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1324154491' post='1471401'] Very nice. [/quote] thank you, sir. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry norton Posted December 18, 2011 Author Share Posted December 18, 2011 Sounds very nice indeed. Now I really want some....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beer of the Bass Posted December 27, 2011 Share Posted December 27, 2011 I saw this linked from Talkbass - a luthier in France is working on a Bisonic based pickup. There are some design drawings in his gallery. They're a bit slimmer than the Darkstars, as the poles adjust by being threaded into a baseplate - no extra adjusting screws. [url="http://www.daguetguitars.com/index.php"]http://www.daguetguitars.com/index.php[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted December 27, 2011 Share Posted December 27, 2011 [quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1324985797' post='1478870'] I saw this linked from Talkbass - a luthier in France is working on a Bisonic based pickup. There are some design drawings in his gallery. They're a bit slimmer than the Darkstars, as the poles adjust by being threaded into a baseplate - no extra adjusting screws. [url="http://www.daguetguitars.com/index.php"]http://www.daguetguitars.com/index.php[/url] [/quote] That luthier is one of the guys who was building using Dark Stars and so I guess he can't any longer get them from Fred Hammon so .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted December 27, 2011 Share Posted December 27, 2011 The pressings and metal parts I can have made in a small run. Someone would need to put the money in though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blademan_98 Posted December 27, 2011 Share Posted December 27, 2011 I fancy having a go at making a set of these. If I do, I'll post a build diary. I have a lathe, milling machine etc. (I used to be a toolmaker ) I've never built a pickup before, it could be fun. Hand winding 6,000 coils may take a while, perhaps that calls for a jig! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry norton Posted December 29, 2011 Author Share Posted December 29, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1324985797' post='1478870'] I saw this linked from Talkbass - a luthier in France is working on a Bisonic based pickup. There are some design drawings in his gallery. They're a bit slimmer than the Darkstars, as the poles adjust by being threaded into a baseplate - no extra adjusting screws. [url="http://www.daguetguitars.com/index.php"]http://www.daguetguitars.com/index.php[/url] [/quote] looks like a standard guitar humbucker size and shape. I still prefer the look of the real BiSonics but it's better than no BiSonics at all I think it was Daguet who did a really nice Phil Lesh-ish EB-2 with 2 DarkStars which looked very cool indeed. 'I want' didn't even begin to cover it... Edited December 29, 2011 by henry norton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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