You Know What I Don't Get About Scales...

[Faithless]

Well, there are other notes that you can resolve to other than chord tones - dig out some good theory book (like Mark Levine's ) and look what's 'above' each base seventh chord - that'll be tensions.

[Bilbo]

The major/happy, minor/sad 'tool' is for children. As with most teaching, in order to explain concepts, teachers of young people give a simplified/digestable version of the concept in order to get it across. If you explain a major scale as happy to a 9 year old and then throw in a truckload of caveats as to why this is not always the case, you confuse rather than educate. Its like when you explain to a 5 year old that their kid brother is growing 'inside Mummy's tummy'. It helps the kid digest the concept in a way that makes sense. In music, throwing all the exceptions in when trying to explain the concept of differences in sound between major, minor, Dominant, Augmented etc is too much information at one time. I have to say, the happy/sad thing never made a shred of sense to me anyway

[Doddy]

[quote name='topo morto' timestamp='1319540399' post='1415324'].
There's an interesting crossover between the Major scale, the mixolydian mode, and the blues scale with its flattened 7th and ambiguous thirds... they're all good friends really.[/quote]

The blues scale doesn't have 'ambiguous thirds'-it is clearly a minor Pentatonic with an added flat 5
(I,bIII,IV,bV,V,bVII)

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='BottomE' timestamp='1319115029' post='1410071']
Thanks. I have been looking for some kind of tutorial on this as its where i think i am at. Damned if i can find one. Any recommendations/links would be gratefully received.
[/quote]

Bilbos description captures the essence very nicely. The thing is that you are really reaching the limits of what can be done by mechanical application of "rules", listen to how various chord tones and non-chord tones sound, feel the tension of those lead-in notes. If you do this you will start to instinctively make good artistic choices.

Edited October 25, 2011 by bassman7755

[BottomE]

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1319535855' post='1415215']

To quote my other post in this thread "people looking to theory for a definitive guide as to what to play, and what not to play, are looking on the wrong place".

As others have also intimated, scales are an "outcome". A song is a group of chords, a chord is a group of notes relative to each other and the root key. Quite often the sum total of those notes happen to fall into a pattern we call a scale, treat that as a happy accident not as your sole vehicle for note selection.
[/quote]
I wasn't looking for theory to be able to supply a definitive what and what not to play. Far from it. I was looking for some specific guidance for a particular element of playing - Jazz improv so that i can practise productively. As a latecomer to theory, as with all things in life, i have realised that the more you begin to know the more you realise you don't know which is both inspiring and depressing at the same time .

The depressing part is accepting that there is so much to learn and trying to focus practise time on what will be a real benefit to your playing. The inspirational part is knowing that there are limitless ways of getting a great result applying new knowledge to real musical situations.

[topo morto]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1319541037' post='1415341']
The major/happy, minor/sad 'tool' is for children. As with most teaching, in order to explain concepts, teachers of young people give a simplified/digestable version of the concept in order to get it across. If you explain a major scale as happy to a 9 year old and then throw in a truckload of caveats as to why this is not always the case, you confuse rather than educate. Its like when you explain to a 5 year old that their kid brother is growing 'inside Mummy's tummy'. It helps the kid digest the concept in a way that makes sense. In music, throwing all the exceptions in when trying to explain the concept of differences in sound between major, minor, Dominant, Augmented etc is too much information at one time. I have to say, the happy/sad thing never made a shred of sense to me anyway
[/quote]

The problem is that once you get past the stage where your favourite songs are nursery rhymes, it's too much of a simplification, as straightforward use of the major scale isn't really 'where it's at'. There are plenty of books for grown ups that say pretty much the same thing, too...

[quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1319541201' post='1415347']
The blues scale doesn't have 'ambiguous thirds'-it is clearly a minor Pentatonic with an added flat 5
(I,bIII,IV,bV,V,bVII)
[/quote]

Ambiguous is probably not not be the best word... but in performance is it not common to bend from the minor third towards the major?

[Doddy]

[quote name='BottomE' timestamp='1319542016' post='1415368']
I was looking for some specific guidance for a particular element of playing - Jazz improv so that i can practise productively. .[/quote]

The exercises that me and Faithless mentioned on the last page are good places to start with that,because it
gives you a grounding on the changes and then brings in approach tones. Also,learn the melodies.

[Doddy]

[quote name='topo morto' timestamp='1319542576' post='1415388']
Ambiguous is probably not not be the best word... but in performance is it not common to bend from the minor third towards the major?[/quote]

Maybe. I often hammer from the minor to the major third,but that is now adding a slight tension and is
used as a short passing tone. It doesn't make the third ambiguous though because it resolves,and the
harmony becomes clear.
Regardless of if you bend a note or what,the Blues scale is always minor.

[topo morto]

[quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1319543012' post='1415403']
Maybe. I often hammer from the minor to the major third,but that is now adding a slight tension and is
used as a short passing tone. It doesn't make the third ambiguous though because it resolves,and the
harmony becomes clear.
Regardless of if you bend a note or what,the Blues scale is always minor.
[/quote]
But you can bend/slide up from the minor to major third - or close to it - and just leave it at that, without it being a passing tone. Depending on the context, why would that necessarily be regarded as a tension that needs to resolve? Or would you consider that to be playing outside of the blues scale , even though it's something that would be thought of as blues style?

[Doddy]

There is a difference between the Blues style and the Blues scale. The Blues scale,as I said,is a
Minor Pentatonic with an added flat 5. The majority of Blues music (style) is played over moving
dominant 7 chords which contain a major 3rd (chord tones I,III,V,bVII).
If you are playing notes that are outside of the chords or key,then you are adding 'tension'.
Playing a major 3rd over a minor,or vice versa,does exactly this whether you choose to resolve it
or not.

Edited October 25, 2011 by Doddy

[topo morto]

[quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1319547553' post='1415531']
The majority of Blues music (style) is played over moving
dominant 7 chords which contain a major 3rd (chord tones I,III,V,bVII).
[/quote]
I've always thought of this kind of motion as almost a transposition of the whole piece in place of the more mild chord changes that you get in other styles... another example is the effect you get in drum and bass/techno of a single, sampled minor or major 7th being played at different speeds, and thereby transposed....
just riffing here, no questions this time

[Leemarc Ferguson]

Guys don't you find just going thru scales really boring. Its great for knowledge and note placement but for me having sat as a kid going thru scales and notation I found I learnt a whole lot more from just playing in bands and being forced to learn songs that were out of my comfort zone. I look at scales like watching a school teacher writing on a black board. Its all necessary but is it practical in the real world? Just my personal thoughts

[JakeBrownBass]

[quote name='Leemarc Ferguson' timestamp='1321614710' post='1441150']
Guys don't you find just going thru scales really boring. Its great for knowledge and note placement but for me having sat as a kid going thru scales and notation I found I learnt a whole lot more from just playing in bands and being forced to learn songs that were out of my comfort zone. I look at scales like watching a school teacher writing on a black board. Its all necessary but is it practical in the real world? Just my personal thoughts
[/quote]

Of course it's practical in the real world. Knowing your theory & scales is the foundation of being a well rounded musician.
If you know what key your in, can recognise the chord progression from sight & then be able to apply the correct scale to the piece with out thinking about it, it allows you to play the songs that are out of your playing comfort zone much quicker, as you already have an idea of what the harmony is doing, what 'fits' & you can pretty much predict whats going to come next.

[Bilbo]

I remember 1,000 years ago when I was a new player and soaking up everything I could find, watching a Weather Report video of the Domino Theory tour. I was watching Victor Bailey play and was aware that he was playing stuff at the bottom of the neck, then adding fills at the top before coming back down to the main groove without missing a beat. It was apparent to me then that, to get around the bass properly, you needed to know how it all worked and what was where.

It came back to me recently when I was playing a gig. We were playing Waiting In Vain and the sax player stuck a little improvised theme in there which he was playing every time there was a change from G to C. I clocked this and, using my knowledge of theory and its relationship to the neck of my bass, I was able to hear the theme, re-frame it and harmonise in thirds and octave higher. I hit the thing spot on without dropping a note. The sax player turned with a big grin on his face that made all thoue hours of scales and arpeggios worthwhile. I don't know if anyone in the audience noticed but he did and that's enough for me.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1321620505' post='1441267']
I remember 1,000 years ago when I was a new player and soaking up everything I could find, watching a Weather Report video of the Domino Theory tour. I was watching Victor Bailey play and was aware that he was playing stuff at the bottom of the neck, then adding fills at the top before coming back down to the main groove without missing a beat. It was apparent to me then that, to get around the bass properly, you needed to know how it all worked and what was where.

It came back to me recently when I was playing a gig. We were playing Waiting In Vain and the sax player stuck a little improvised theme in there which he was playing every time there was a change from G to C. I clocked this and, using my knowledge of theory and its relationship to the neck of my bass, I was able to hear the theme, re-frame it and harmonise in thirds and octave higher. I hit the thing spot on without dropping a note. The sax player turned with a big grin on his face that made all thoue hours of scales and arpeggios worthwhile. I don't know if anyone in the audience noticed but he did and that's enough for me.
[/quote]

+1

[charic]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1321620505' post='1441267']
I remember 1,000 years ago when I was a new player and soaking up everything I could find, watching a Weather Report video of the Domino Theory tour. I was watching Victor Bailey play and was aware that he was playing stuff at the bottom of the neck, then adding fills at the top before coming back down to the main groove without missing a beat. It was apparent to me then that, to get around the bass properly, you needed to know how it all worked and what was where.

It came back to me recently when I was playing a gig. We were playing Waiting In Vain and the sax player stuck a little improvised theme in there which he was playing every time there was a change from G to C. I clocked this and, using my knowledge of theory and its relationship to the neck of my bass, I was able to hear the theme, re-frame it and harmonise in thirds and octave higher. I hit the thing spot on without dropping a note. The sax player turned with a big grin on his face that made all thoue hours of scales and arpeggios worthwhile. I don't know if anyone in the audience noticed but he did and that's enough for me.
[/quote]

If you weren't a mod I would "like" this. But I'm not allowed

[chardbass]

Mod's can't be liked. It's not in their nature

[Mornats]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1319113727' post='1410046']
That's all about leading notes and grace notes, BE. They work becuase they are adjacent to the chord tones and are used on weak beats of the bar as a lead into a diatonic phrase on a strong beat. Holding any lead in note will create tension that is released when it is resolved. A lead in note will work better on a chord tones than a non-chord tone and on a weak beat rather than a strong one although turning that around has long ago become acceptable in the right context. You learn to recognise the difference quite quickly and make your musical decisions accordingly.
[/quote]

I know it's going back a bit in the thread but I've just read the whole thing and gave this one a little go and it worked beautifully.

I'm learning a little bit of theory/scales at a time and just taking my time messing around with something until I need to move on, then I'll learn a bit more. I always try to knock up a track using a certain scale (or whatever else I've just learnt) which then makes me play it over and over, leave out notes, chuck in some passing notes etc. and that's what helps me learn it (rather than playing them over and over which would certainly be better I suspect but some people are really put off by that).