I've hit the wall

[Amafi]

Hi folks, I've been playing quite a while and I think I'm on the verge of a personal breakthrough with regards to my music theory but I still can't quite find that missing piece of the puzzle.
I'm totally self taught and have played for quite a few local bands who seem to think I'm a decent bassist!!
Thing is, I don't really know what I'm doing.. I'm a fraud!

I know my major scale in every position and in every key, I know the modes and I know both my Major and minor Pentatonics in every key.
Most songs I play are 12 bar but I still don't know whether I should play Major or minor Pentatonics as they both seem to fit.

What I would really like to know is what scale/mode to play and when, especially for fills, and how do you know what scale/mode to use?

Say I was to get a song from a friend, how would I know how to jam over it?

A recent video said that you should find each chord that the guitarist is playing, overlap them in the same fretboard position, and the notes from the chords will define the scale to play.
Is this correct?

Any advice would be helpful.

Thanks

[Wylie]

Many others will give you much better (and specific) advice than I could. But from what you've said, especially the first part, it sounds like you are ripe for a teacher. A teacher will be able to start you using scales and modes in tunes and playing over chords, etc.

The video advice sounds a bit strange to me, though.

Edited October 19, 2011 by tedgilley

[BottomE]

Having had my first proper bass lesson last night i would say get a teacher. Don't worry we are all frauds to various degrees. The fact you are prepared to do something about it is cool.

[Bilbo]

[quote name='Amafi' timestamp='1319043972' post='1409300']

I know my major scale in every position and in every key, I know the modes and I know both my Major and minor Pentatonics in every key.
Most songs I play are 12 bar but I still don't know whether I should play Major or minor Pentatonics as they both seem to fit.

What I would really like to know is what scale/mode to play and when, especially for fills, and how do you know what scale/mode to use?

Say I was to get a song from a friend, how would I know how to jam over it?

A recent video said that you should find each chord that the guitarist is playing, overlap them in the same fretboard position, and the notes from the chords will define the scale to play.
Is this correct?

Any advice would be helpful.

Thanks[/quote]

Sounds to me that you know some stuff but have not yet got a sense of context. Most blues are based around dominant chords rather than major but the dominant chords are the fifth mode of the major scale so its them same notes starting in a different place. A major pentatonic works over both as there is no 7th, a minor works because there is a blue note (the third). Your guitar player may be playing rock barre chords that are often ambiguous, hence both sounding correct.

As for the video advice, its very simplistic. It may work with first position chords but not with any interesting voicings (a lot of jazz guitarists don't play root notes etc). Try finding some play-alongs that focus on the stuff you want to learn.

[Bilbo]

And PS, the fraudn thing never really goes away

[gjones]

Some very good advice here from Carol Kaye. [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9idtdWAAEA"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9idtdWAAEA[/url]

[Amafi]

Thanks for replies everyone. Seems I asked the right place.
@ Bilbo. I interpreted your reply as most blues being played in a Myxolydian (Dominant?) scale, therefore if I was to jam to a blues tune in A, then I should/could be playing an A Myxolydian scale over the whole thing? (A, D, E)
Forgive my ignorance, I forgot to mention I was an idiot in my initial post, lol.

As to other members recommending a teacher, I think you are right. I have a thousand questions and this post could get quite long..
If there are any [i]extremely[/i] patient teachers in the North East (Northumberland) area, please contact me if you think you can help.

[Wylie]

[quote name='Amafi' timestamp='1319050571' post='1409402']
Thanks for replies everyone. Seems I asked the right place.
@ Bilbo. I interpreted your reply as most blues being played in a Myxolydian (Dominant?) scale, therefore if I was to jam to a blues tune in A, then I should/could be playing an A Myxolydian scale over the whole thing? (A, D, E)
Forgive my ignorance, I forgot to mention I was an idiot in my initial post, lol.

As to other members recommending a teacher, I think you are right. I have a thousand questions and this post could get quite long..
If there are any [i]extremely[/i] patient teachers in the North East (Northumberland) area, please contact me if you think you can help.

[/quote]

Good luck!

[Doddy]

[quote name='Amafi' timestamp='1319050571' post='1409402']Thanks for replies everyone. Seems I asked the right place.
@ Bilbo. I interpreted your reply as most blues being played in a Myxolydian (Dominant?) scale, therefore if I was to jam to a blues tune in A, then I should/could be playing an A Myxolydian scale over the whole thing? (A, D, E)
Forgive my ignorance, I forgot to mention I was an idiot in my initial post, lol.
[/quote]
The thing with Blues is that they are usually all 7 chords..for example A7,D7,E7. You can
comfortably use the Mixolydian mode for all the changes but you would really need to change
the root. If you blanket the changes with A Mixolydian there will be a clash of some notes-
D7 contains a C natural,whilst E7 contains a G#,both of which will clash with the C# and G natural
of the A Mixolydian mode.

Edit.....In your first post you say that you know the Major and Minor scales and everything. Are you just
playing the patterns and moving them around the 'board or do you actually 'know' them-as in you know how they are constructed and what notes they contain?

Edited October 19, 2011 by Doddy

[Amafi]

@Doddy.

Yes mate, that's it, I know the [i]patterns[/i] of the Major and minor scales. I would easily be able to work out what notes are in them (although I'm not sure whether to call some of the notes sharps or flats), but I just don't know where or when to use them or when I could use a particular mode.
I am aware that the Ionian, Lydian and Myxolydian are Major modes too, and therefore assume they can be played over Major chords, but I wouldn't know which mode to use over a particular key. I would guess it depends on the rest of the chords in the song.

You are making sense to me about using the root notes, as I would normally begin each chord change on the root, and I kind of understand what you mean about how I could not just use any note of the Myxolydian but needed to land the root of the scale on the changes, switching to the Myxolydian of that key. Did I understand that correctly?

Thanks.

[Bilbo]

That is correct. Use the root of the dominant 7th chords as the first note of the mixolydian mode and change the mode every time you change the chord. So a blues in E would be

E7 = E mix (Amajor) = E F# G# A B C# D E

A7 = A mix (D major)= A B C# D E F# G A (only note different is G instead of G#)

B7 = B mix (E major)= B C# D# E F# G# A B (only notes different are D# and G#)

Those 1 and 2 note differences are what defines the 12-bar blues and a whole genre has been built upon them.

[peteb]

It seems that you can play the basics that pretty much all blues bass players use but want to understand why what you are playing is the right thing

Just a suggestion if you don’t want to go down the teacher route – get on youtube with a bass and a pair of headphones handy and pick some accomplished player that you rate playing a blues song and learn their part note for note, a bar at a time if necessary. For some reason I’m thinking of someone like Roscoe Beck playing with Robben Ford, maybe ‘Talk To Your Daughter’ (not too simple but still recognisable as a 12 bar), but obviously it could be anyone who takes your fancy.

Once you have got the line down and can play it pretty well then try taking it apart and analysing it, working out which mode he uses over each chord, when he uses a chromatic run, plays a lick, etc. Once you think that you have worked out what makes the part work, try playing a simple blues that you know (maybe ‘Red House’ or whatever) and see if you can incorporate bits of the part you have just learned into the way you play ‘Red House’ (or whatever familiar track you choose)

Then pick another song from another player and do the same thing again!

Edited October 20, 2011 by peteb

[Amafi]

Thanks Bilbo, very helpful info. Another piece in the puzzle

@Peteb
Sound advice mate, thanks. I've been studying basslines note for note for years for the exact reason you mention, but it is only recently I have thought of them as playing in modes. I was always trying to find what 'name' and type of scale they were playing. Maybe that's why it's taken me so long to progress. I will be going back to the drawing board with a new perspective now though.

Cheers all

[peteb]

You need to know your modes and scales, etc but what you really need to do is to develop and then trust your ears!

Don’t be afraid to listen and even steal from other players – everyone who’s any good has done it, especially in the blues! To take my earlier example, if can play the turnaround that Roscoe Beck plays in Talk To Your Daughter properly, you can then slow it down and play it over the turnaround of Red House, amending it where necessary so that it sounds right. Then it is no longer Roscoe Beck’s part anymore – it’s yours!

Edited October 21, 2011 by peteb

[louisthebass]

If you're really looking to understand which scales / modes work with particular types of chords, it might be worth you getting some of the Jamey Aebersold Playalongs (Volume 24 Major & Minor has a book that has a shedload of scales & their related chord types - there are also a couple of Blues Playalongs in the series as well, but they aren't straight I-IV-V progressions).

Alternatively, it might be worth checking Stuart Clayton's Scales & Modes book. I bought it and am still working through it, definitely worth the money.

[leftybassman392]

A little stylistic point you might want to consider: when using the Mixolydian scale, you could try sliding up to the major third from the minor third - it gives the progression a nice lazy, bluesy feel.

From Bilbo's example, when playing around the E7 chord, you fret a G natural just before the beat and slide up to the G# as it comes round.

The reason this works is that the true Blues third is actually neither a minor third nor a major third, but somewhere in between.

As it happens you can also do it at the major 6th/flat7th (C#/D in the E7 example) for the same reason.

Theoretically it works on the flat 5th/perfect 5th - Bb/B - as well but I personally don't use it at that position as it doesn't sound as natural to me.

Edited October 21, 2011 by leftybassman392

[Amafi]

Cheers all, every bit of advice is useful to me.

I have ordered Stuart Clayton's book on scales and modes as it's been mentioned on here a few times now. I'm gonna see where I get with that.

All the best.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='Amafi' timestamp='1319043972' post='1409300']
What I would really like to know is what scale/mode to play and when, especially for fills, and how do you know what scale/mode to use?
[/quote]

Knowing what musical devices to employ for a given situation is not a pure intelectual excercise, there is no exact formula despite the plethora of litrature claiming to provide exactly that (something it took me about 10 years to realise ...).

You need to get to the point where your making such decisions based on [b]sound [/b]and thats means internalising the sound of the various scales/apreggios etc. It means being able to hear in your head common chord progresions, turnarounds etc and being able to hear (again in your head) how the note your just about to play will interact with that.

For some people this internalisation occurs naturally from just playing and others (like you and me) it doesnt and needs specific attention, I suggest some structured ear training such as the burge relative pitch level 1 and/or the bruce arnold one-note series. There is also alot of software ear training progs but I prefer the audio courses as I can make use of otherwise unproductive time (such as when driving).

No amount of pure intelectual theoretical knowledge can make up for a good descriminating musical ear - and believe me I tried very very hard to prove this wrong .

Edited October 24, 2011 by bassman7755

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='Amafi' timestamp='1319142981' post='1410604']
I've been studying basslines note for note for years for the exact reason you mention, but it is only recently I have thought of them as playing in modes. I was always trying to find what 'name' and type of scale they were playing. Maybe that's why it's taken me so long to progress. I will be going back to the drawing board with a new perspective now though.
Cheers all
[/quote]

Heres a alternative very reductionist view of music which I sometimes find useful as an "antidote" to getting stuck in mode/arpeggio hell. Its also the basis of bruce arnolds series of ear training programs:

There are only 11 notes, each one of which has a specific sound or "function" relative to the current tonal center. Every abstract musical device (interval/scale/chord/arpegios etc etc) is some subset of those 11 sounds. To master music you must learn to isolate recognise and hear in your head those 11 sounds in any musical situation. This is of course [b]much[/b] easier said than done - probably several years intensive ear training for most people.

If you are going to analyse basslines for ideas, focus on how the note played relates to the current chord and how it relates to the current key/tonal center. Learn to hear those relationships in your head. I stress the individual note bit - a mode sounds like a mode because of its constituent note functions and its those constiuents that are important, not the mode itself, which is just a convenient name for a group of harmonic note functions (same applies to scales/chords/arpeggios etc generally).

Edited October 24, 2011 by bassman7755

[Amafi]

@Bassman7755

Thankyou, that is a very intelligent approach to music generally. It makes a lot of sense.
A friend of mine played bass who had [i]no[/i] music theory whatsoever, he played some of the best bass lines I have ever heard in my life.
Unfortunately, he doesn't play anymore but is now a very well respected artist. (paintings etc)
As you say, he just had the ear for it.