session playing

[john_the_bass]

if i play on a session for somebody who is signed (as they claim to be) and i play a bass line which i've essentially created for them, presumably i'd get listed for a credit, etc.
How do i make sure that if they stand to make a pot of cash out of it, i get my small share?

i've done a bit before but it's mainly been charity stuff so as long as i get a credit and a cup of tea, i'm happy

[acidbass]

I don't think writing a bassline is considered as a songwriting credit. I *think* that it's only the sequence, melody and lyrics that are covered by copyright. A lot of session players are paid set fees which are agreed before a single note is played, so maybe you should talk it over with whoever is organising the session to see if you can reach some sort of agreement?

[Wullapache]

[quote name='acidbass' post='16365' date='Jun 12 2007, 05:33 PM']I don't think writing a bassline is considered as a songwriting credit. I *think* that it's only the sequence, melody and lyrics that are covered by copyright. A lot of session players are paid set fees which are agreed before a single note is played, so maybe you should talk it over with whoever is organising the session to see if you can reach some sort of agreement?[/quote]

ive had discussions like theses before, if a bassline is deemed the main theme in the song then u may be eligible for a writers crdeit, an exampley used by a lecturer of mine is "under pressure" say if a session player was brought in to play that bassline, it is more than essential to the song, therefor would be considered for a writing credit.
thoughts?

[Lenny B]

It's generally not even chord sequences that are copyrighted (see how bebop tunes were all based on standards)

Bass lines are often considered to be contributing more to the arrangement of the song rather than the composition, but that will depend on the circumstances and the song.

BUT, if you're doing a session then be prepared for your fee to be for a buy-out of all rights, including any for composing you may have done.
That's part of the job - coming up with a creative line on the spot for a fee.

The general rule with Employees is that any copyright work created in the course of employment belongs to the employer - it's much the same with session musicians.

But, everything can be negotiable...

You should get a credit though - no reason why not.

Get a contract to confirm everything though.

[bassjamm]

As has been stated already really...going by what you've said, you're not eligible for any song share/credits, the only 'credit' you are eligible for is to have your name on the song sleeve to show that you played bass for that song. When people see that, if they like the bass line, they'll get in touch with you, that's as good as you can ask for.

The only circumstance in which you'll gain song share is if you actually have an active share in writting the song, e.g. the singer has the lyrics, but no music, you may come up with a groove that you then turn into a chord sequence and add a melody, you've just written the music, so you get song share on that!!! But if the singer has a chord structure, and you come up with a killer groove, you've been inspired by their chords, and you were just doing your job as a bass player, not as a composer!!!

I guess there is a fine line though...but in general, you'll either be brought in to play bass, in which case you get your session fee, or you'll be brought in to help produce and write material, this may also include laying down a bass line, but you'll get credits for the production and composing that you do!

Hope that helps.

[Lenny B]

Just to add on from previously, this is the essence of the recent Procol Harum 'Whiter Shade of Pale' case from just before Xmas - when is adding to an arrangement sufficient to warrant a co-composition credit?

It takes thousands of pounds to find out in court - settle it by negotiation if you really think your bass line is fundamental to the song (not the arrangement) and the hirer will agree to it, but go into a session prepared not to come out with any publishing.

That's the other part of being a session player - if you rock too many boats, you don't get asked back.

[BassBod]

Be realistic, but above all agree the deal before you play a note - preferably before you go to the studio. I'd rather take an agreed fee over potential future earnings. But then I'm not rich (or particularly busy at the moment.....hmm)

I've taken to quoting higher than feels natural these days - you do lose a few jobs, but you also get better paid when you work.

BB

[Sibob]

Theres a few different views on this! I've seen interviews with big session players who say "If i write the bass line, i want a writing credit. Justin Meldal-Johnsen actually covers his views on writing credits in his seminar over at www.bassplayer.tv
The musicians union will have guidelines on this.

Certainly at the level it sounds like they're at it would be prudent to secure a fee before you play anything. Saying that "I'm signed" doesn't really hold much weight nowadays, unless you know theres a decent amount of money and marketing machine behind the artist. I'm signed in Japan, but i wouldn't offer you a royalty lol.

Good Luck mate

Si

Edited June 12, 2007 by Sibob

[Mikey D]

Check out the PPL who pay out performance royalties for more info. If you play on a track that is aired you are entitled to a cut (even though in most cases it will be very very minimal)

[url="http://www.ppluk.com/"]PPL[/url]

Also have a read of this for an explanation of royalties and how they are paid and when etc:

[url="http://www.howstuffworks.com/music-royalties.htm"]How it works[/url]

[Mikey D]

And if you think you are owed any money because a recording you played on has been aired etc:

[url="http://www.royaltiesreunited.com/rr/RR_FE.nsf/Search?OpenForm"]Search for your name and register...[/url]

It's amazing who hadn't/hasn't received their royalties.

[bassjamm]

[quote name='Mikey D' post='16557' date='Jun 12 2007, 10:21 PM']Check out the PPL who pay out performance royalties for more info. If you play on a track that is aired you are entitled to a cut (even though in most cases it will be very very minimal)

[url="http://www.ppluk.com/"]PPL[/url]

Also have a read of this for an explanation of royalties and how they are paid and when etc:

[url="http://www.howstuffworks.com/music-royalties.htm"]How it works[/url][/quote]

Hi mate...are you absolutely sure on this. As i understand it, you only get royalties if you have credits...i'm just signing up on PPL due to having had material released...but as far as i'm aware, you only get money if you have credits...i'll be very happy if i'm wrong though All i need to do then is to get on some decent sessiosn

[chris_b]

Hi, In my experience if you play on a session you get a session fee. No more no less. Whether the artist is "signed" or not won't make any difference. You don't always get credited either. It is different if you are a member of the band, but then, in that case, you wouldn't have been hired for a session.

Playing a great or creative bass line doesn't automatically get you a writing credit, PRS or royalties. Herbie Flowers, who created and played the bass part for Lou Reed's Walk On The Wild Side only got the session fee. It was doubled up, though, because he played string bass AND bass guitar.

If you are enough of a "name" you can negotiate your own price, Steve Gadd, Eric Clapton or Justin Meldal-Johnsen, for instance. But until you get to that level I'm afraid you don't get to make the rules.

Edited June 13, 2007 by chris_b

[Kiwi]

As a bit of useless trivia: Will Lee played sessions in the 90's for something like triple or quadruple scale. In Bass Player, he said he bumped up his rate as a way of weeding out the crappier work but it only ended up increasing demand instead!

[Lenny B]

Interesting article from Sound On Sound about session bass playing; - some of the MU rates have changed now.

[url="http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/oct98/articles/sessionmusic.html"]http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/oct98/arti...ssionmusic.html[/url]

Just to clear up a few points from above;

- whether or not you get a 'credit' shouldn't affect your entitlement to PPL income - (PPL income is shared 50/50 between the record label and artist and the artist's share is divided 65/35 between the featured performer or band and all other session musicians. ) This is because a performer is entitled to 'equitable remuneration' for his performances being played in public. It's a fairly new concept in copyright terms.

- don't confuse PRS and PPL income - they are both income streams arising from Public Performances, but PRS is for songwriters and PPL is for performers.

Any more Q's, please ask.

[john_the_bass]

that all makes sense.
i appreciate the advice and understand a lot more about the machinations of this kind of thing.

i doubt it would come to anything anyway, but i just wanted to cover my [Tiajuana brass] a bit

[chris_b]

[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='16658' date='Jun 13 2007, 08:07 AM']As a bit of useless trivia: Will Lee played sessions in the 90's for something like triple or quadruple scale. In Bass Player, he said he bumped up his rate as a way of weeding out the crappier work but it only ended up increasing demand instead! [/quote]

The same happened to Duck Dunn in the 60's. He was too busy with recording and club dates that he tried to cut down on the studio work by doubling his fee. The result was an increase in session work! He couldn't figure it out either.

Good news about PPL. If only that was around years ago!

[lukeward2004]

[quote name='Sibob' post='16451' date='Jun 12 2007, 07:44 PM']Theres a few different views on this! I've seen interviews with big session players who say "If i write the bass line, i want a writing credit. Justin Meldal-Johnsen actually covers his views on writing credits in his seminar over at www.bassplayer.tv
The musicians union will have guidelines on this.

Certainly at the level it sounds like they're at it would be prudent to secure a fee before you play anything. Saying that "I'm signed" doesn't really hold much weight nowadays, unless you know theres a decent amount of money and marketing machine behind the artist. I'm signed in Japan, but i wouldn't offer you a royalty lol.

Good Luck mate

Si[/quote]

Hi Si,

Just as a quick side note, I noticed you are in First Signs Of Frost - and Im sure Ive gigged with you before. Ever played the White Horse in High Wycombe with Enter Shikari and Science Murders Dreams?

Sorry for hijacking the thread.