Scales!

[MissPenguin]

I don't know if anyone else has this problem - Maybe it's because i'm mathmatically challenged as well as never learning them from a young age, but i just can't get my head around scales! Obviously posting that up here isn't going to help, so my question (For anyone really.. Although i'm more aiming this at Jazz bassists i guess) how did you learn your scales/arpegios?
I know it's mostly music theory, and i guess that's where i haven't made the link - I can play some scales on my bass, but in music in general they seem completely different.
Does it just take a lot of practise?
Or did anyone sit down with a book of scales and memorise them?
I believe learning my scales would help push me in the right step towards improvising, as it's something i can play through in my head but not on my bass.
Tips and hints welcome, sarcasm expected.

[The Funk]

I'm going to be really helpful: I don't understand the question.

(But the answer is The Jazz Theory Book by Mark Levine)

[WishICouldWalk]

Get yourself a copy of Gary Willis's Fingerboard Harmony book. The approach is all about connecting chord tones. I don't think scales by themselves are particularly useful.

[GonzoBass]

You might want to try playing your scales over a sustained chord
or at least a root note
to understand the "flavor" each scale is implying.

If you don't have a piano or guitarist to assist you with this,
try recording yourself playing just a simple eighth note pattern like pounding an open E for a few minutes.

Playing the scales over this root tone will help you to hear the specific tension each one provides.

If you don't have access to a recorder,
simply let an open E note ring out
while you play the 8 tones of the E Major scale on your A, D and G strings starting on the 7th fret of your A string.
(E F# G# A B C# D# E)

Then play the 8 tones of the E Minor scale in the same fashion.
(E F# G A B C D E)

By doing this you should easily be able to hear how the Major scale sounds "Happy"
in comparison to the more "Serious" Minor scale
in relation to the E root.

Once you've copped the feel of these two touchstone scales,
I suggest looking into the seven modes.

By playing each of the modes in the same manner,
you should be able to find:
"Spanish" (or "Egyptian"),
"Funky",
"Angry",
"Jazzy",
etc.

...and when you're ready?
[url="http://www.geocities.com/scaleopia/"]HERE[/url] is one of my favorite scale resources.
(Try the Japanese scales. They're delicious!)

Endless hours of fun
and in turn, means of self expression!


Of course this is just the doorway into the world of scale theory,
(All keys, over the entire neck)
but it's a start.

I hope I understood the question correctly and that this helps!

[MissPenguin]

Thankyou for your replies, i think i'm going to have to invest in these books.
I just feel like i can't even approach improvising until i have a feel for what notes make up each chord.
And GonzoBass i think i will try what you've said and see if i get along with it.
Sorry i couldn't phrase the question in an understandable way..

[nig]

Hi Gonzo bass, what you doing here, a long way from home buddy.hope that your well, My take on scales is learn major and minor, 1octave scales in all positions on the bass, as its tuned in 4th, the positions remain the same where ever you are, there are 2 basic positions or ways of playing the major and minor scales scales and the fingering is the key, basic finger disciplin is really important, I learned classical guitar as a kid and piano, the fingering was the key, being able to count too, you can then find your intervals and key signatures, all rules will have exceptions, ie: melodic or harmonic minor, E and F, B and C having no sharp or flat beetween them, but dont worry about the harder stuff, the same with arpeggios, keep asking questions and someone on here will always answer, the rockschool bass tutor books are a good teaching aid and start at basic and keep going, enjoy, but dont let it get you down and my final thing , use those two things on the side of your head...ears ! they are worth a million tab hours. regards, nig.

[MissPenguin]

I had never noticed my ears before
Thankyou very much for the advice

[nig]

@Misspenguin, my reason for the last point was, im 49 and done teaching and have found the tab generation miss the subtle art of zoning in with their ears. When in the late 70s and 80s i used to learn a track by listening first, find the key, memorise bits, play along with the track and 'groove in' as I call it. Nowadays I can listen to a track and pretty much identify and play a part after a few listens, unless its 'donna lee' or 'yyz' ! but , that was my point, especially with 7th's, major to minor and that sorta stuff.

[The Funk]

[quote name='MissPenguin' post='162137' date='Mar 23 2008, 12:04 PM']Sorry i couldn't phrase the question in an understandable way..[/quote]

No, don't worry. I was being deliberately unhelpful. I apologise if what I say below is patronising - I can't gauge your level so I'm aiming it at beginners.

The important thing about scales (that most people have said above) is the relationship they have with various chords.

A chord symbol will give you strong clues about what notes are in the corresponding scale.

Some of it is obvious.

Take E minor 7 as an example: E (root), minor (minor 3rd-G, perfect 5th-B ), 7 (minor 7th-D).

That gives you four of the seven notes in the scale. The other three notes in the scale, the 2nd, 4th and 6th, would correspond to the 9th, 11th and 13th of the chord.

If the only information you have about the chord is Em7, then you have to figure out whether the 2nd is major or minor (ie. F# or F), whether the 4th is perfect, diminished or augmented (ie. A, Ab or A#), and whether the 6th is major or minor (ie. C# or C).

If the 2nd is major, the 4th is perfect and the 6th is major then the scale you have is E dorian.

If the 2nd is major, the 4th is perfect and the 6th is minor then the scale is E aeolian.

If the 2nd is minor, the 4th is perfect and the 6th is minor then the scale is E phrygian.

When you know what Em7 chord you're dealing with, you have a good clue as to the other chords you might be playing in a given tune.
(E dorian = D ionian-Major 7, F# phrygian-minor 7, G lydian-Major 7, A mixolydian-dominant 7, B aeolian-minor 7, C# locrian-minor 7 b5).

Does that make any sense?

Edited March 23, 2008 by The Funk

[DanOwens]

Simply, get a GOOD teacher or find a friend who does know this stuff.

Some of my students have said they've been trying for years to get their heads round theory and I have opened up their brains to the whole complex, yet simple (should that read, simple yet complex??? :s) concept.

The key thing with it is not to learn it as a mathematical or geometrical principle, but to use these as the path to letting yours ears hear and understand what is being heard.

It's very hard to explain on a message board, and much easier in person. So (if you can afford it - I couldn't when I was a beginner) get a good teacher!!

Good luck!!!

Dan

[The Funk]

[quote name='TheBrokenDoor' post='162317' date='Mar 23 2008, 07:18 PM']It's very hard to explain on a message board, and much easier in person.[/quote]

I gave it a shot in the end - tried to resist.

[MissPenguin]

Yeah.. I feel stupid now, i thought i would, but decided to post it anyway.

The reason i mentioned the maths thing is because my music teacher told us that it's sometimes just a case of maths (especially when it comes to intervales and such) and that when music AS levels and such first started out, you had to take maths too. And my brain doesn't seem to like maths very much.
TheFunk, i've had all that theory thrown at me before, but not broken down like that - So thankyou for explaining it to me.
So yes, it does make sense.

I do have a good double bass teacher, but because of my AS course, all my time is spent working on my solos and random graded pieces that i may never get round to actually playing in an exam at this rate.

[GonzoBass]

Sorry for the temporary highjack here folks, but...


[quote name='nig' post='162223' date='Mar 23 2008, 05:04 AM']Hi Gonzo bass, what you doing here, a long way from home buddy.hope that your well,[/quote]
Hey there nig!
Good to see you too!!!

Been here (although intermittently) since day one actually.
I believe I was member #002 at the original BassWorld.
Even before it went public!
In fact,
the idea to add a theory forum was one of my contributions.
Glad to see it's survived the move.

[u]Thanks and well deserved props to all the dedicated people who fought to keep this site alive![/u]


...and now back to our regularly scheduled thread.

[The Funk]

[quote name='MissPenguin' post='162354' date='Mar 23 2008, 08:28 PM']Yeah.. I feel stupid now, i thought i would, but decided to post it anyway.[/quote]

You shouldn't feel stupid. I was way older than you when I started to figure some of this stuff out.

Some theory is useful when you're trying to figure out what the people you're playing with are actually playing - when they can't tell you themselves. It's also helpful when you're soloing.

The Jazz Theory Book is very good for all of this stuff. I'd definitely have a look at it. It's useful for helping you figure out how you might actually apply scales in a practical setting.

Another good book is Patterns for Jazz which basically sets out some different licks and phrases - all grouped according to the different chords or changes you might want to use them over.


[i][u]Quick Recap[/u][/i]

If the Em7 chord you're playing is Dorian, you're in the key of D Major; if it's Aeolian, you're in the key of G Major; if it's Phrygian, you're in the key of C Major.

If the E Major 7 chord you're playing is Ionian, you're in the key of E Major; if it's Lydian, you're in the key of B Major.

If the E7 chord (dominant 7) you're playing is Mixolydian, you're in the key of A Major.

If the Em7b5 chord you're playing is Locrian, you're in the key of F Major.


[u][i]Further Reading[/i][/u]

There are other scales which fit Em7, EM7, E7 and Em7b5 too derived from other scale types (ie. Melodic Minor, Harmonic Minor, Harmonic Major, Diminished and Whole Tone scales). And those other scale types also contain modes which correspond to other types of chords, like minor-Major 7 chords, diminished chords and augmented chords.

There are also many chord changes which don't strictly follow the modes of a given scale type. While that can be a bit unnerving at first, there are some standard conventions people tend to use when substituting a chord for "the correct chord" or reharmonising a chord or sequence in general.

Rather than try to start going through those things here it's best if you just go through it in The Jazz Theory Book by Mark Levine. He explains things much more clearly than I ever could - and he doesn't throw everything at you at once.


[quote name='MissPenguin' post='162020' date='Mar 23 2008, 12:11 AM']how did you learn your scales/arpegios?
Does it just take a lot of practise?[/quote]

So to answer your question, yes it does take a lot of practice. But it helps to know why your scales and arpeggios will be useful to you. That normally helps me with the motivation to get through it.

[MissPenguin]

Thank you i will check out those books.

[BassBomber414]

Of course , once you've learnt all these tedious scales, it seems to be the 'in thing' to play them all as fast as possible , in a jazzy style , with enough improvisation to fool believers into thinking you are very talented.

And if you really want to bore the arse off people you can film yourself and put it on You Tube, with the other 50,000 who have learnt their scales.

Or you COULD play from the soul.

My advice, Miss Penguin, don't bother , some of the best players don't read or know any theory whatsoever.



Rant over, sorry.

Edited March 27, 2008 by BassBomber414

[DanOwens]

Hey Bomber.

I totally agree with you .. some of the best players from the best groups don't understand theory. It does not mean, however, that they don't know it.

Music theory is just a load of labels put on things that our EAR has already decided. The best way to learn for some people (and I do this with some of my students who aren't interested in learning the 'rules' of theory) is to play one note, and play another with it. Listen to the way it sounds. Remember that gap so if you want to create the same feeling, you can use that gap and you'll be like 'oh yeah!!!'.

This is how I learned Klezmer theory. Droned the D string and played the G string up and down. Once I'd decided on the sounds I liked and wanted to reproduce I tried it in a new key on a new open string. Once I'd exhausted the open strings I tried it in G or C or something.

I learned theory by ear for about two years before I started to really practice, just by hearing one note over the other!!!

Dan

[The Funk]

[quote name='dlloyd' post='164711' date='Mar 27 2008, 07:13 PM']Why do you think learning how harmony works prevents you from 'playing from the soul'?[/quote]

I second that emotion!

The advice saying don't bother learning anything is equivalent to saying "don't learn to read - some of the best authors in the world were illiterate". (EDIT: Homer was probably illiterate, but he was a bard, not an author)

Learning why things work will help you get across what you're trying to say from your soul. If you don't know how to get across what you feel in your soul then you're not playing from your soul - you're playing from your fingers and whatever they happen to stumble on. So you're actually playing from chance, not your soul.

Some people just can't be bothered. If Miss Penguin couldn't be bothered she wouldn't have asked the question in the first place.

EDIT: I don't read music (notation or tab). It's a hindrance rather than a help.

Edited March 28, 2008 by The Funk

[DanOwens]

[quote name='The Funk' post='165178' date='Mar 28 2008, 12:34 PM']EDIT: I don't read music (notation or tab). It's a hindrance rather than a help.[/quote]

Is that not rather contradictory?

Dan

[mcgraham]

It seems that this discussion has touched on a similar area as the lengthy thread over in general discussion.

[quote]My advice, Miss Penguin, don't bother , some of the best players don't read or know any theory whatsoever.[/quote]

I know some players who are good musicians who learned only a little bit of theory and did well for themselves. In fact I'd say they know more about making good music than many musicians who have learned their theory. HOWEVER, they are (firstly) good [u][i]in spite[/i][/u] of their lack of knowledge, not because of it (an important distinction to make); (secondly), they have been rehashing stuff in the same genre with the same feel with the same (or near the same) level of technical ability for the entire time I've known them, because they have no new 'tools' to work with.

I want you to know that I am purposefully refraining from typing anything derogatory or potentially offensive here, however, I am sick to death of people making out that they will be better musicians for not learning any theory at all, or learning just a bit and stopping. This is exactly what you are advocating. That is an ignorant, and in fact arrogant, stance to take on learning. (IMO)

If you or anyone else can explain to me, DEFINITIVELY, why not learning theory will make you a better player or why learning theory will make you a worse player, then I will not be so aggressive on this point. To this day, the only arguments I have heard involve lots of maybes, maybe-nots, and vast amounts of conjecture.

Please note, none of this is intended to wound, I simply wish to convey my feelings on the matter. These thoughts are not directed at you, nor intended to be about you, rather the mindset you appear to have.

Ok, semi-restrained rant over.

Mark

[mcgraham]

Oh, and in response to the original post, I for one found learning the modes extremely helpful. I'm not sure how much theory you know (I've learnt not to take it for granted that everyone knows this stuff) but the modes (collectively) contain all the possible intervals that you can play. It may seem quite an abstract concept to grasp but I played each mode and really 'got inside' the sound of each, identifying what notes make it sound the way it does. Once you've started doing that, and started to internalise it, suddenly improvisation and getting around the neck is not so daunting.

I hope this helps set some goals that I achieved whilst doing the above.

1. Learn each mode, even in just one position to start (learn the pattern AND the intervals/notes in each)
2. Try and learn what they sound like (e.g. maybe assign an identifiable quality to each Major, happy; Dorian, bluesy; Phrygian, spanish, etc)
3. Break them down into notes and fragments, construct short phrases and find out what they contribute to the overall sound/feel of each scale/mode.
4. Try and construct your own scales/phrases using fragments from each mode, identifying the sound each bit you use.

That way you are learning something, learning what it does, breaking it down and learning why, and then learning how to use it and manipulate it to your advantage.

Does that make sense?

Mark

[The Funk]

[quote name='dlloyd' post='165814' date='Mar 29 2008, 12:18 PM']I read that as him saying that 'not reading' was a hindrance rather than a help.[/quote]

Exactly. I find my lack of reading skills a hindrance rather than a help. How could anyone find being able to read a hindrance? That doesn't make any sense.

You can also learn music theory without having to read notation or tab. It's just more work.

[The Funk]

[quote name='mcgraham' post='165929' date='Mar 29 2008, 04:12 PM']Oh, and in response to the original post, I for one found learning the modes extremely helpful.[/quote]

For a good explanation of "the modes" go to Dlloyd's post above.

[GonzoBass]

Here's a hand out I made up to help my students visualize and explain the theory behind the construction of the modes
(it's sized to print out on standard 8.5"x11" paper)-

[attachment=7040:Modes.jpeg]

The partial fretboards at the bottom are so you can write out the 8 tone whole step/half step pattern each mode creates.
This will help you to translate and apply them to all keys.
...hopefully.

[DanOwens]

[quote name='The Funk' post='166030' date='Mar 29 2008, 07:47 PM']Exactly. I find my lack of reading skills a hindrance rather than a help. How could anyone find being able to read a hindrance? That doesn't make any sense.[/quote]

I'm an idiot. We share similar values, and I'm sorry for the misunderstanding.....

Trying to get my students to read and to learn the theory is difficult, so I mainly work from pieces of music. Like a minor funk in E with a C#-to-D thing going on. Once they've got the riff, We look at embellishing it and to do that you need to know the Dorian mode. Every one of them has eventually took it on board (except the 11 year-old beginner whom I'm taking it slowly with).

Dan