Cab choice for a 100 watt valve head

[Beer of the Bass]

My current setup with my band is a Carlsbro 100 watt valve PA head, paired with an old Peavey 1x15" cabinet which is loaded with an Eminence Kappa 15 driver. I get plenty of volume for my needs out of this, but I would like to change the cabinet for something a bit lighter, as carting a ~30kg cabinet up to my flat at 2am is not much fun and I'm sure I'll do my back in eventually. It also has a bit less upper mid response than I'd like. I'm looking at several modern, lighter cabinets, and I'm looking to spend £200-£300 ideally, or could stretch to about £350. My band isn't incredibly loud - the drummer can be quite rocky but he has decent dynamics, and the guitarist is using a little 1x12" Fender combo. I play a mixture of fingerstyle and pick, like to use overdrive and fuzz pedals on some songs and play a five string, but I'm not too heavy on the lower range.
I'm considering the following options:
-Buying a TC BC212 and possibly disconnecting the tweeter
-Ashdown LB212, if anyone still has them in stock
-Laney NX115, though I'm wondering if it'll have high enough sensitivity with a 100 watt amp.
Are there any other options people would suggest, or opinions on the cabs above? I don't actually need to be louder than my current speaker, though a bit lighter would be nice. Most 4x10" cabs would be heavier than I want. Unfortunately, my budget doesn't stretch to things like the Barefaced cabs, and I don't have the work space for DIY.

[Lozz196]

One of these may do the job quite well, they come in either 4 or 8 ohms:

http://www.soundslive.co.uk/product~name~Gallien-Krueger-212MBE-Bass-Amp-Cabinet-4-Ohm~ID~15014.asp

[Kiwi]

I'd suggest something that has a bit of sensitivity if you need a little volume. Don't go for anything less than 100dB. Alexclaber or others will probably talk about excursion and cone area.

[Beer of the Bass]

Are the sensitivity figures quoted by most manufacturers meaningful, though? I've no idea if they're rated in any kind of consistent way between manufacturers.

[Kiwi]

My understanding is that sensitivity varies across frequencies. However my EBS cabs are rated at 103dB and I have great results with my 140w Burman valve heads through them. Conversely I've had poor results for a pair of Acme B2 cabs rated at 98dB. Yes the ratings are general but they've been OK to work by for me.

[Mr. Foxen]

Excursion is no issue with a 100w head, it is the thing that matters if you puish power. All about sensitivity. A Barefaced Vintage or Super 15 will be really loud with 100w. I have a 100w Carlsbro and a S15, so could probably demo how loud. Reckon the fact my 70w Burman is loud enough is sufficient though.

[Beer of the Bass]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1319933647' post='1420377']
Excursion is no issue with a 100w head, it is the thing that matters if you puish power. All about sensitivity. A Barefaced Vintage or Super 15 will be really loud with 100w. I have a 100w Carlsbro and a S15, so could probably demo how loud. Reckon the fact my 70w Burman is loud enough is sufficient though.
[/quote]

Cheers for the real-world perspective - most speaker reviews I can find are from people using higher powered solid state heads,. We probably have different standards of "loud" though - no Doom required here!
I'm loud enough with my current 1x15, so the main thing is not to be less sensitive than that. As far as I can gather from playing around with WinISD, the Kappa 15 in my enclosure has pretty decent efficiency for a 1x15 (around 100dB 1w/1m IIRC), I'd just like it to weigh less. I'm also the only driver in the band, so if I had something like a 2x15", we'd have to rent a van for every gig rather than using a car. As it is, we can squeeze into an estate car.
The only efficiency specs I can find for the cabs listed above are 95dB for the Laney NX115 and 100dB for the GK212MBE.

[Lozz196]

The dB rating will make a fairly significant difference. I`m no techie person, but am sure those guys will be along soon to echo the point, and provide stats.

My two Barefaced cabs, 1x15 & 1x12, easily match (possibly outperform) my old Eden Nemesis 4x10, which had a dB rating of about 103 I think, but they do it with much less surface area. Likewise, my Nemesis cab on it`s own outperformed my 2 Ampegs that I used together, a 2x10 & 4x10, as each of those had a rating of about 98dB.

Am sure there are other factors, but on it`s own, dB rating is definately worth taking into account.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1319970109' post='1420558']

Cheers for the real-world perspective - most speaker reviews I can find are from people using higher powered solid state heads,. We probably have different standards of "loud" though - no Doom required here!
I'm loud enough with my current 1x15, so the main thing is not to be less sensitive than that. As far as I can gather from playing around with WinISD, the Kappa 15 in my enclosure has pretty decent efficiency for a 1x15 (around 100dB 1w/1m IIRC), I'd just like it to weigh less. I'm also the only driver in the band, so if I had something like a 2x15", we'd have to rent a van for every gig rather than using a car. As it is, we can squeeze into an estate car.
The only efficiency specs I can find for the cabs listed above are 95dB for the Laney NX115 and 100dB for the GK212MBE.
[/quote]

WinISD only tells you useful stuff below 200hz, lots of 'loudness' is above 200hz, so have to be cautious there. I think the Kappa is pretty close to a woofer driver and doesn't have much in the higher regions, so other stuff might seem a lot louder. DB rating on cabs are a bit dodge, sice htere are so many variables they don't mention.

[Beer of the Bass]

I've emailed TC to see if they have a 1w/1m sensitivity figure for the BC212 - I wonder what they'll say? The Ashdown LB212 might also be worth a shot if I can find one. They don't publish any specs for it, but if it was designed to be used with the 30 watt LB head I presume the designers would have been going for efficiency above all else...

Edited October 30, 2011 by Beer of the Bass

[Lozz196]

I too asked TC for specs on their cabs - they did reply, but said they didn`t have them. I found this a bit worrying, that a company doesn`t know it`s own products specs.

[xgsjx]

There's a BFM Omni 15 Tallboy for sale on here. Comes within your budget & would probably knock spots off anything else in that price bracket.

[url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/159029-bfm-omni-15-tallboy/"]Here it is.[/url]

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1320051376' post='1421508']
There's a BFM Omni 15 Tallboy for sale on here. Comes within your budget & would probably knock spots off anything else in that price bracket.

[url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/159029-bfm-omni-15-tallboy/"]Here it is.[/url]
[/quote]

Doesn't get on amazing with valve heads, sensitive for a 1x15, but far too much is in the lows that aren't going to happen with a 100w valve head. Probably has a weird impedance curve that might not agree too well also.

[Beer of the Bass]

Looks good, but is also a bit larger than my vehicle situation needs. I'm not sure extended high frequency response agrees with fuzz pedals either.

[Beer of the Bass]

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1320049837' post='1421498']
I too asked TC for specs on their cabs - they did reply, but said they didn`t have them. I found this a bit worrying, that a company doesn`t know it`s own products specs.
[/quote]

I got this response from TC, having asked them if they had a 1w/1m sensitivity figure for the BC212;

"I'm sorry, but we don't have further details on this available at this point."

Poor show, IMO.

[xgsjx]

If they don't know what their cabs specs are, who does?

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1320085072' post='1422135']

I got this response from TC, having asked them if they had a 1w/1m sensitivity figure for the BC212;

"I'm sorry, but we don't have further details on this available at this point."

Poor show, IMO.
[/quote]

Hi dude. Sensitivity specs can be fairly meaningless anyway because they don't tell you where the volume is distributed, you get a better idea of how it'll sound/perform in that respect (LF notwithstanding) from the freq response chart of a driver. This has a big influence on perceived volume depending on how it relates/interacts with your bass' output frequencies.

The Eminence Kappa 15 has several variants, have a look at Eminence to see the charts, matching it up with what you hear'll give you an idea of what you're getting/lacking and can compare to other drivers. You won't find many single 15s and definitely not 12s that are louder than them at the lower end, but there're plenty of 12s that extend further up top. Working out which frequency range you count as 'upper mid' helps! Coming from PA I tend to think of about 4k and up, but I think for a lot of bassists it's anything above 1.5kHz! I suspect you're looking for some extension between 2.5 and 4k-ish, but correct me if I'm wrong.

The other aspect of the 15" drivers is the dispersion, it's generally pretty rubbish so if you're off-axis to the woofer it sounds a lot duller than right in front. Smaller drivers will help this, and is one reason I've gone for 10" drivers in my miniature rig I'm building! Stacking them to get them higher up helps lots too. The trouble there is that multiple chassis/magnets add weight and cost compared to a single larger driver. One thing in your favour is that with 100 watts you really don't need the power handling of the kappa 15s, which helps keep the weight down and sensitivity up. 2- or 300 watts total handling should be ample, a single reasonably decent and high sensitivity 12" in a decent-sized box would probably get you close enough to where you are currently, or a pair of cheaper/lighter/lower sensitivity ones. 2x10, you may struggle without sacrificing low end.

I know you've said the space is a problem but I'd be really tempted to DIY with an Eminence Deltalite II 2512. http://www.eminence.com/speakers/speaker-detail/?model=DeltaliteII_2512
For your purposes this is pretty much the ideal driver - high sensitivity, rising midrange response extending nice and high for a 12, and the reduced power handling compared to the more expensive kappalite 3012HO (used in the barefaced midget I think) is irrelevant. Build it into a bigger box than the Midget and it would have more natural bottom end. In fact, playing around with WinISD, it's excursion limited at 100 watts in 80 litres tuned to 50Hz so given the other specs 60-80 litres would probably suit this driver very well. Unfortunately, 112s built around this driver are quite expensive. I do have some spare poplar ply down in Devon that would be perfect for this...

[Beer of the Bass]

Interesting stuff, Lawrence! The chart for the Kappa 15 has a peak just below 2kHz and drops off quite steeply after that.
[url="http://www.eminence.com/pdf/Kappa_15A.pdf"]http://www.eminence....f/Kappa_15A.pdf[/url]
This can sound quite aggressive, but kind of dull above that. I've modified my amp with a bright cap which increases gain above about 2K at lower volume settings, and this has got me closer to the sound I want. My other cab, an EA Wizzy 10 cab I use for double bass gigs goes up to 5k according to the manufacturer - from the sound of that, I don't need to go any higher. The Wizzy actually sounds good with the Carlsbro, but doesn't get me the volume and lows I'd want in places bigger than a pub backroom for electric bass use. So 2.5k-4k is indeed the range where I'd like a bit more. On heads with more sophisticated EQ, I usually find myself boosting this range to get the sound I like.
DIY is not entirely out of the question, but needs an empty house for a couple of days so that I can get my workmate out and take over the kitchen! For some reason, I'm happy to to do things with instruments and valve amps, but wary of cab design as I feel like there's a lot I don't understand thoroughly. I also considered selling the Wizzy 10 and the big ol' 1x15" and going for a pair of 1x12" cabs, so that I could use one or two with either my Clarus head or the Carlsbro depending on the situation.

Edited November 2, 2011 by Beer of the Bass

[BassBod]

Think about the older EA CXL 112 - not light, more medium weight but a great cab for general stuff. Very clean and "up front" sounding but easily calmed down with eq tweaks. Very cheap these days, despite the original new price!

Mine has been surpassed by a BF Midget..but only on weight really (half the EA cab). It can sound very big when needed, but also maintains the accuracy and projection aspects when pushed. For a small all-rounder its the best I've used, together with a Bag End S15 (more traditional sound, but also small and portable).

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1320221748' post='1423811']
DIY is not entirely out of the question, but needs an empty house for a couple of days so that I can get my workmate out and take over the kitchen! For some reason, I'm happy to to do things with instruments and valve amps, but wary of cab design as I feel like there's a lot I don't understand thoroughly. I also considered selling the Wizzy 10 and the big ol' 1x15" and going for a pair of 1x12" cabs, so that I could use one or two with either my Clarus head or the Carlsbro depending on the situation.
[/quote]

I might get slated for saying this, but the good thing about bass cabs is that they are generally pretty rubbish from a hi-fi perspective and it doesn't really matter...as long as you choose a ball-park size and tuning that suits a driver you're ok. All of the hi-tech is really in the driver design. You'd easily have the skills to make a cab that was stiff enough and airtight. A pair of 112s is similar to my thinking with the 10s, flexibility at the price of increased cost and a small increase in overall weight. Apart from the cost I'd hesitate to use the deltalite for this if you wanted to make them tiny, but 60l+ internal volume and you'd have a monstrous set-up. For a pair of 112s I'd maybe look at some cheaper, pressed-steel frame woofers. As a rule they don't sound as controlled with power in the bass as the cast chassis, but they're generally lighter and at your power levels it wouldn't matter too much. If you can find them at the old, cheaper price or secondhand you might consider the celestion orange label neos, not many people here rate them on spec because everyone's focused on xmax but they extend nice and high and with good sensitivity again, I think they'd be voiced to your liking http://professional.celestion.com/bass/pdf/BN12-300S8.pdf
There's a 4-ohm version as well. I have to say I haven't modelled the bass response but I've heard a cab loaded with orange series drivers and they sound articulate. Btw even xmax figures are presented differently by different manufacturers so I wouldn't be too put off even for higher-power SS applications - esp on double bass.

I'd also agree with BassBod, if you're not DIYing secondhand is definitely the way to go - in some ways the lightweight end of the market is less advanced than it was a few years ago because raw material prices went up so much.

[Beer of the Bass]

[quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1320233989' post='1423999']

For a pair of 112s I'd maybe look at some cheaper, pressed-steel frame woofers. As a rule they don't sound as controlled with power in the bass as the cast chassis, but they're generally lighter and at your power levels it wouldn't matter too much. If you can find them at the old, cheaper price or secondhand you might consider the celestion orange label neos, not many people here rate them on spec because everyone's focused on xmax but they extend nice and high and with good sensitivity again, I think they'd be voiced to your liking [url="http://professional.celestion.com/bass/pdf/BN12-300S8.pdf"]http://professional..../BN12-300S8.pdf[/url]
There's a 4-ohm version as well. I have to say I haven't modelled the bass response but I've heard a cab loaded with orange series drivers and they sound articulate. Btw even xmax figures are presented differently by different manufacturers so I wouldn't be too put off even for higher-power SS applications - esp on double bass.

[/quote]

The BN12-300s are on offer for £69.99 at Lean Business, but unfortunately only the 4 ohm, not the 8-ohm version. The 8 ohm is £138.20! That could work, but two 4 ohm 1x12s would need to be in series to keep the Carslbro happy (it has 4,8 or 16 ohm taps). I would need to figure out what volume and porting they're happy with, but it looks like an option. For double bass use, I always use the highpass filter on the Clarus anyway, so excursion could probably be well controlled in that application.

[alexclaber]

I'd keep an eye out for a used Wizzy 10 and then you can double up for louder gigs, thus replacing your 1x15". Just make a series cable so you can use the 8 ohm tap on your valve amp (unless there's a 2 ohm tap on it like on SVTs).

Or build a simple large-ish ported box with that 2512-II. With only 100W excursion will be low so that driver will indeed be fine and the port can be pretty small too. The high Vas will give you a mid-bass hump which will get you some extra loudness (at the expense of transient response but that won't matter with your valve head). Use 1/2" ply, add braces wherever it booms when you knock on it, then line it with insulation and it'll be better built in an engineering sense than most stuff out there!

[alexclaber]

I wouldn't use the BN12-300W with a valve amp - the high Fs and fairly low Qts means that bass response is choked, so you need more power to get lows out and you don't have the power. The BN15-300X would work admirably for a more old school (no deep lows but lots of mid-bass) tone.

[Beer of the Bass]

How about the Eminence Basslite s2012 for a pair of smallish 1x12s? I've seen them at decent prices, they have lower Fs and Eminence have designs on their website for sealed or ported 1x12s.

[alexclaber]

Yes, they'd be good. I think you'll prefer them ported. I'd go for something halfway between their two ported designs.