Old Watts - vs - New Watts

[JohnFitzgerald]

Yeah, I know.
What a stupid statement.

A watt is a watt is a watt.

W(h)at I'm actually getting at here is the modern breed of, usually, class D super lightweight amps compared to the more traditionally constructed tackle.

Here's my own very simplistic observations. Fans of the boutique kit should probably look away now, there's nothing for you here.

My old AH250 MKIV Trace never ever ran than more than say 3 on post gain but was ridiculously loud into a single 8 ohm cab.
My old Peavey TNT was 130 watts. I think I got that up to 4 once before the drummer (!!) pleaded for mercy and asked me to turn it down a bit.
The current AH150 into an 8 ohm cab is plenty loud enough for me at maybe 2.5 - 3 on post gain.

Experience of newer kit is restricted to.

Ashdown Superfly.
500W. Seriously ? This thing is 500W ? Nah,you're kidding right ?
I had it plugged into a brace of 4 ohm cabs in a rehearsal room and couldn't hear it behind yesterday's chip paper.

Phil Jones Flightcase. 150W.
Set up the preamp to be as hot as possible and still be clean then increased the post until it was at a repsectable level. I had pretty much maxed it out. Maybe 85-90 % flat out. Is that it ? Never compete with any sort of band ?

I know that's maybe not the intention of the Phil Jones, but it just felt very underwhleming to me.

Same with pretty much all of the Ashdown stuff I've tried and owned to. Couple of MAG C115 300 combos, just no ultimate reserve of power. ABM 300 115 Combo, wound away up to get a repsectable volume. MAG 300 stack . 4x10 and 1x15. Same as above. I'm having to wind on lots of gain before this thing will actually be loud.

Our rehearsal room has a brand new ABM 600 into a 6 x10 and yet again. Plenty of bottom, no good mid or top and really, does it need to be up so far before it produces a decent level of output ?


What gives ?

Is one watt the same as another watt ?
I know there's more to it than that, but what are your findings ?

[Merton]

Position of your volume control doesn't equate to output in watts

[Happy Jack]

And there's more to volume than watts.

I've used exclusively Barefaced cabs for the last two years, and I've driven them with - at different times, of course - an Eden WTX500, an Orange Terror Bass, and a Gallien Krueger MB500.

I play mainly pub gigs, plus the occasional outdoor bash. I've never yet got any of those rigs above about 50% output without being asked to turn down.

Gentlemen ... choose your weapons.

[discreet]

As said, it depends a lot on the sensitivity of your cab(s), but I've found that Markbass amps seem to pump out more (perceived) power than you would expect from their rated output. IME.

[EssentialTension]

And the number of watts claimed by the manufacturer may not be wholly accurate.

[Mr. Foxen]

Watts has no meaning without a ton of other specs supplied. They especially don't relate to volume or SPL.

[Soliloquy]

I think it's down to the honesty of manufacturers. Same as with the cab manufacturers, they both lie about what their particular product does.
I've got an SWR Headlite amp, supposed to be 400 watts into 4 ohms, but there's no way that it is.

I compared my Headlite, an old Trace Elliot AH250 and a MarkBass F1 all through the same cab. The F1 was easily the loudest, the AH250 came second and the Headlite was third. Both the F1 and the AH250 were louder set on 2 or 3 than the Headlite was turned up full !

Edited October 30, 2011 by Soliloquy

[chris_b]

[size=4]To the OP, you should always spend a lot of time reading user reviews before you buy any gear. The Superfly seems to be well known for being underpowered.[/size]

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1319973461' post='1420610']
And the number of watts claimed by the manufacturer may not be wholly accurate.
[/quote]
This.

[chris_b]

[quote name='JohnFitzgerald' timestamp='1319968072' post='1420519']
....What a stupid statement.... A watt is a watt is a watt....
[/quote]
[size=4]It's not stupid, and it's also not always true. Specs can be true or "close" depending on which department in the company has the real power, the techies or marketing![/size]

[size=4]Also with the signal processing that is possible these days watts don't always equal volume either. [/size]

[size=4]All the info is out there on the web, most of it is covered on Basschat and Talkbass , so you've got to go looking. [/size]

[icastle]

There are so many different ways of measuring and expressing watts that quoted figures are pretty meaningless.

My own suspicion is that the marketing people decide how many watts the amplifier needs and then the tech guys find a way of matching that figure to what they've built by mathematical manipulation.

[xgsjx]

After a bit of time reading things on here, you'll come to realise that "watts" accounts for a small percentage of what the actual perceived volume is.

The TC RH450 is a prime example. They marketed it as a 450w head, but it's actually 236w. The problem with trying to sell it to the majority of bassists whom think wattage is the "be all" of how loud a thing is would be that they'd most likely think it only goes 1/2 as loud as something like a Markbass LMII due to it having @ 1/2 the wattage. The RH 450 is (according to owners on here) every bit as loud as the LMII.

Just like Budget Surround Sound manufacturers claiming their system is "19000 watts of pure power" or some drivel.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='icastle' timestamp='1319980557' post='1420729']
My own suspicion is that the marketing people decide how many watts the amplifier needs and then the tech guys find a way of matching that figure to what they've built by mathematical manipulation.
[/quote]

I reckon its more the techs come up with a big sheet of specs that the marketing guys don't understand, and they pick one they like the look of.

[LawrenceH]

I think often they just go by the amp module rating with an underspecced power supply so it can't sustain it. Plenty of cheap amps struggle with bass for this reason

[Soliloquy]

They tend to put 'peak power', rather than whatever the other thing is.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='JohnFitzgerald' timestamp='1319968072' post='1420519']
Is one watt the same as another watt ?
I know there's more to it than that, but what are your findings ?
[/quote]
A watt is a watt. Reserve current capacity and headroom is something else entirely. Old 'big iron' amps have high capacity power supplies, most Class D use switching supplies that don't have a lot of storage capacity. There's still much to be said for those fat bottom girls.
Of course there arises the question of when is a watt not a watt, and that involves marketing trickery, if not downright deception.

[Ian Savage]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1319985790' post='1420835']
A watt is a watt. Reserve current capacity and headroom is something else entirely. Old 'big iron' amps have high capacity power supplies, most Class D use switching supplies that don't have a lot of storage capacity. There's still much to be said for those fat bottom girls.
Of course there arises the question of when is a watt not a watt, and that involves marketing trickery, if not downright deception.
[/quote]

All true; the big, heavy ol' Traces, Laneys and the Hartke I've currently got were/are easily giggable despite 'only' putting out a couple of hundred Watts. Not played a 'lightweight' amp that's come close.

[Mr. Foxen]

Has anyone actually tried putting beefier caps into a SS amp, or is there more to it than that?

[flyfisher]

[quote name='JohnFitzgerald' timestamp='1319968072' post='1420519']
A watt is a watt is a watt.
[/quote]

That's correct. But you then go on to talk about differences in volume, even though the two things are not the same thing. Watts are not the same as volume. There are a whole bunch of other variables.

Might as well say a cat is a cat is a cat but then start asking about the differences in their bark. Cats are not dogs, so it wouldn;t make much sense.

[JohnFitzgerald]

Some of you may have worked out by my tone at the top of this thread that I'm happy with the combination of the Trace AH150 and the Peavey 410.
That's still true, so this wasn't really about what to buy or anything like that.
I also accept that I then went on to compare all sort of things which weren't even remotely comparable. There you go, I ramble a bit at times :-)

It was more about teasing out responses by those of you with more technical knlwedge than I with regard to why the 'big old iron' as it's called above seems to produce the goods whereas the lighter stuff might not always do so.

On a similar note, we were speaking to our local shop where we buy all our kit with respect to power amps. The current power amps are a brace of Crown XLS602 amps which are absolutely spot on, but stick them in a rack with a crossover and that's one heavy box. We're also looking to add a new amp for monitors.
They have the current Peavey class D power amps in which are ultra light weight and are a good price so we had thought of going to three of those. Foldback, mid top and sub. Our man told us they would be fine but he reckoned we would be best sticking with the ctown for the PA subs.
I think that's quite telling and not at all irrelevant to this topic too.

[clauster]

I've got to admit, I've found myself pondering the same question recently. I'm currently running a Hartke LH500 into a Barefaced Compact. It sounds great, but I'm convinced the Peavey TNT150 I had 20 years ago was LOUDER (nowhere near as portable though lol).

[gjones]

Yes it's strange. My TC electronic is plenty loud enough through a 2x12 8 ohm cab with the gain just below peaking and the master at halfway. Through my 8 ohm Ashdown ABM 15 it sounds even louder. I hate to think what kind of volume I could achieve using them together giving a 4 ohm load (I've never had to try). But supposedly TC electronic exaggerate the actually wattage of their amps because people believe watts equal loudness.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='gjones' timestamp='1319991465' post='1420940']
Yes it's strange. My TC electronic is plenty loud enough through a 2x12 8 ohm cab with the gain just below peaking and the master at halfway. Through my 8 ohm Ashdown ABM 15 it sounds even louder. I hate to think what kind of volume I could achieve using them together giving a 4 ohm load (I've never had to try). But supposedly TC electronic exaggerate the actually wattage of their amps because people believe watts equal loudness.
[/quote]

The 4 ohm load isn't the thing, it is the cabinet sensitivity, voltage sensitivity is the more useful thing than the db/w one, but lower impedance = greater voltage sensitivity.

[JohnFitzgerald]

Well, it's what we've been sold as the concept of how to comapre, hasn't it ?



It's almost like the things you get now with cars nowadays.

"Yeah, I bought the 170bhp version."

OK, where does it make 170bhp, at what RPM ?

"Haven't a clue, I just know it's the 170bhp version."

Right, but I've been in the car with you and you change up at 2000rpm, you're probably using about 100 of those 170bhp.

"Ah, ok. But mine's the 170bhp version."


Right....

[Happy Jack]

Surely what matters is not how powerful your rig is, or even how loud it is ... what matters is whether it is loud enough for what you are trying to achieve.

My current rig is easily loud enough for the gigs I play, and with headroom to spare. In the unlikely event that I get offered a gig at the Shepherds Bush Empire, or maybe the O2, my current rig would still be loud enough because FOH would be handled by the PA.

I could go out tomorrow and buy http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Powersoft-D1604-1600W-Professional-1U-Power-Amplifier-/270682537893?pt=UK_MusicalInstr_Amplifiers_RL&hash=item3f05efbfa5

I wouldn't play any louder, and it wouldn't make me a better bass player.