Old Watts - vs - New Watts

[Dood]

I'm glad the Powersoft gets a mention though HJ.. If there was ever a D Class amp that can thunder like an old iron beast, then this is it! On a PA forum, Powersoft amps are at the top of he list for driving large subs as well as mids and tops it seems.

Ok, so that's a bit off on a tangent, but I certainly have experienced D Class amps that seemed loud, but also seemed to lack depth or girth in their sound.. Ok, so it's hard describing sound! Umm, 'weedy' might be a better description. I've had a number of D Class amps but I have to say that I am very happy with the big transformer / oversized power supply amps I am currently using. Sure, I'd prefer it if hey were lighter as I have a rubbish back, but things do sound great on planet Dood!

[JTUK]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1319993058' post='1420961']
Surely what matters is not how powerful your rig is, or even how loud it is ... what matters is whether it is loud enough for what you are trying to achieve.

[/quote]

This.

I run two amps...one is 400w into 4 and the other 550.

Gain runs about 2 on both and volume between 1 and 3 for a decent size place.
I know that will be enough on a decent sized stage outdoors with poor or no bass monitoring bar me and FOH.

I choose what rig to use based on a large or small stage footprint.

What do I care about how loud it is supposed to be in terms of watts? I have enough and the amp does not run out of steam pushing the sound I want.
Some amps do not run high volumes very well, IMO...and the sound changes more fundementally than you'd like.

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='dood' timestamp='1319993623' post='1420969'] I certainly have experienced D Class amps that seemed loud, but also seemed to lack depth or girth in their sound..
[/quote]
I agree.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, the Streamliner is the first Micro I've played that doesn't lack in that department.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='JohnFitzgerald' timestamp='1319992140' post='1420952']
Well, it's what we've been sold as the concept of how to comapre, hasn't it ?



It's almost like the things you get now with cars nowadays.

"Yeah, I bought the 170bhp version."

OK, where does it make 170bhp, at what RPM ?

"Haven't a clue, I just know it's the 170bhp version."

Right, but I've been in the car with you and you change up at 2000rpm, you're probably using about 100 of those 170bhp.

"Ah, ok. But mine's the 170bhp version."


Right....
[/quote]

Good analogy. The numbers game always does it for the marketing suits.

[Dood]

I do want to try a streamliner, I've tried the predecessor heads and I wasn't totally moved by them. That was in a direct shoot out with an F1 and GK's lil 500w head.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1319988050' post='1420866']
Has anyone actually tried putting beefier caps into a SS amp, or is there more to it than that?
[/quote]
Much more. With a standard power supply too much capacitance can lead to a blown transformer, as the initial current rush on power up is determined by capacity. Enough capacitance can appear as a dead short to the transformer until they charge a bit. I'm not terribly familiar with switching supplies, but I suspect the same is true of them.

[retroman]

You have to be careful when looking at the power output of amps, as a lot of manufacturers will state "Peak" watts, and not "RMS", which is what we should really be interested in. My old Trace V Type AH600 claimed 600 watts RMS, and 1200 watts peak! Was pretty loud as it goes, with the 4X12, and 2X15 matching cabs.

There also seems to be a huge void between valve watts, and transistor watts. The Marshall VBA400 is rediculously powerful, and has huge amounts of power in reserve, where as some transistor stuff runs out of puff quite quickly. To me, Ashdown, and Trace heads sound more and more compressed the louder you go, and the bottom end seems to dissapear with it. I use the rule of thumb that to get the same volume levels, you need double the watts from a transistor amp.

Another major factor in volume is the effeciency, and type of cab, or cabs you are running. Some of the modern, somewhat boutique type cabs can really belt it out, where as an old 1X15 cab from the 80's will be really struggling to keep up. And then there is the projection of the cab as well.

All horses for courses at the end of the day.

Was trying out basses yesterday through a Genz Benz Streamliner, and Vanderkley cabs. Very nice actually

[Mr. Foxen]

Watts without a THD figure, frequency and impedance are super useless. The 'difference' between valve and SS 'watts' illustrates this, as the distortion form clipping a valve power section is much less abrasive to the ear than a SS one, but it is still distortion.

[markorbit]

I gigged a Trace AH250 into an 8 ohm 4x10 quite happily with the volume somewhere around 3 or 4 clicks from off. It also had plenty more to give. Nowadays for some reason I wouldn't easily entertain a 250w amp. I also think there is something missing from Class D amps but other times I'm not sure the difference isn't just 'different day' syndrome.

[discreet]

[quote name='markorbit' timestamp='1320002021' post='1421160']
I also think there is something missing from Class D amps
[/quote]
BALLS!
No really, it's 'Balls'.

[alexclaber]

If two amps are both rated at the same power output then one will usually sound louder than the other if:

(These are EQ curve, filtering, compression and 'tone' issues - these points are all regarding increased perceived loudness without any difference in actual power.)

1. It has less bottom
2. It has more midrange
3. It has more treble
4. It has a less clean sound but the dirt is pleasing to your ears
5. It has steep highpass filtering to avoid wasting power on subsonics
6. When it clips it clips in a more sonically pleasing manner
7. It has a good limiter which allows you to push it harder before clipping or unpleasant compression occurs
8. It has in-built compression which increases the average:peak level ratio

(These are specification and power section issues - these points relate to amplifiers actually producing more power in the real world)

1. Its power was rated at a lower %THD
2. It has greater current delivery reserve
3. It can deliver more peak power
4. It is better at handling reactive loads

All comparisons need to be done with a very high spec loudspeaker otherwise its non-linearities at high power will lead you astray. Change the cab and all bets are off - sensitivity makes a HUGE difference to dB out.

[xgsjx]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1320002449' post='1421176']
BALLS!
No really, it's 'Balls'.
[/quote]
Whereas I'd like to agree, I cannot
My Markbass has loads more than the Trace Elliot 4x10 combo or the HH, Wem or Carlsberg things, or any of the other heavy solid state blocks that I've used.

[icastle]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1319980715' post='1420732']

I reckon its more the techs come up with a big sheet of specs that the marketing guys don't understand, and they pick one they like the look of.
[/quote]

Very few companies are driven by techs.
IME the marketing guys decide on the item that they want to sell into the market based on what their competitors are producing and then get the techs to produce something that fits the price bracket.

If techs designed amps the way they wanted to then they would weigh a ton and cost a fortune.

[Gazm]

It'll be 1 louder if the volume knob goes to 11

[Ian Savage]

[quote name='Gazm' timestamp='1320781178' post='1431395']
It'll be 1 louder if the volume knob goes to 11
[/quote]

Peavey Classic guitar amps go to 12

[chris_b]

[size=4]All the controls on my Dynacord combo used to go to 15![/size]

[mcnach]

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1319980712' post='1420731']
After a bit of time reading things on here, you'll come to realise that "watts" accounts for a small percentage of what the actual perceived volume is.

The TC RH450 is a prime example. They marketed it as a 450w head, but it's actually 236w. The problem with trying to sell it to the majority of bassists whom think wattage is the "be all" of how loud a thing is would be that they'd most likely think it only goes 1/2 as loud as something like a Markbass LMII due to it having @ 1/2 the wattage. The RH 450 is (according to owners on here) every bit as loud as the LMII.

Just like Budget Surround Sound manufacturers claiming their system is "19000 watts of pure power" or some drivel.
[/quote]


Where did you get that number/info? (RH450 outputting 236W)
Not arguing here, just genuinely curious. I have been using one of those for over two years now quite happily and I don't care whether it's louder than X or quieter than Z, it works for me so that's cool but I'm aware of manufacturers' habit of massaging numbers for marketing purposes and I'm curious about this. I have heard before abough how the RH450 is not really 450W, but I haven't yet seen what that statement is based on.

[Alpha-Dave]

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1320966578' post='1433986']
Where did you get that number/info? (RH450 outputting 236W)

[/quote]

Bass gear magazine a few months ago. As part of the review process they actually hook the amps up to some testing equipment to see how they perform, they are far more thorough and sophisticated in their methods than the other bass/guitar mags.There's a free-to-read online version you can get the article from.

[LawrenceH]

There's a thread on here with a link to a TC document explaining their cheek, but more amusing (though ultimately less informative unless you actually find that same link buried somewhere) is to look at this http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f15/tc-electronics-rh450-quasi-wattage-ratings-discussion-thread-801140/index60.html

[mcnach]

[quote name='Alpha-Dave' timestamp='1320969620' post='1434022']
Bass gear magazine a few months ago. As part of the review process they actually hook the amps up to some testing equipment to see how they perform, they are far more thorough and sophisticated in their methods than the other bass/guitar mags.There's a free-to-read online version you can get the article from.
[/quote]


cool, thank you! I'll look it up.

[mcnach]

[quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1320969764' post='1434027']
There's a thread on here with a link to a TC document explaining their cheek, but more amusing (though ultimately less informative unless you actually find that same link buried somewhere) is to look at this [url="http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f15/tc-electronics-rh450-quasi-wattage-ratings-discussion-thread-801140/index60.html"]http://www.talkbass....40/index60.html[/url]
[/quote]


but... but... 60 pages?????????

[mcnach]

[quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1320969764' post='1434027']
There's a thread on here with a link to a TC document explaining their cheek, but more amusing (though ultimately less informative unless you actually find that same link buried somewhere) is to look at this [url="http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f15/tc-electronics-rh450-quasi-wattage-ratings-discussion-thread-801140/index60.html"]http://www.talkbass....40/index60.html[/url]
[/quote]


oooh, but on the first page it says something about TC Electronic replying to the findings that the wattage was much lower than 450 with a "yes, it's true" kind of answer and ading they used "quasi-wattage measurements."

Right, thread bookmarked. I must read it

[algmusic]

The watt thing does annoy me.. I really think it should be regulated...

My terror bass is 500w at 4 or 8 ohms yet the AD200 is 200 watts.. I think we all know which amp is louder... and Imagine I put my sp210 into the ad200... it would blow it up on any volume above 1.5

I my head.. I try to think of the valve stuff on one side and the SS on the other...

I must agree with Happy Jack.. If it's fine for what you need.. it's fine!!!

[chris_b]

[quote name='algmusic' timestamp='1321010834' post='1434284']
....The watt thing does annoy me.. I really think it should be regulated....
[/quote]
[size=4][color=#222222][font=Arial]There is a standard measurement, its RMS. The only problem is that RMS doesn't equal volume, it never did. Amp manufacturers have been "stretching" their specs for years and cab manufacturers openly lie about their ratings, but with the quantum leap in cab design we’ve seen in the last 10 years its become even more difficult to rate the volume of a rig. The sensitivity and design of a cab and half a dozen other factors now affect how loud an amp appears to be. [/font][/color][/size][color=#222222][font=Arial][size=2][/size][/font][/color]
[size=4][color=#222222][font=Arial] [/font][/color][/size][color=#222222][font=Arial][size=2][/size][/font][/color]
[size=4][color=#222222][font=Arial]Also amp manufacturers can process the signal to significantly increase its loudness so how do you rate that?[/font][/color][/size][color=#222222][font=Arial][size=2][/size][/font][/color]

[bremen]

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1320006880' post='1421270']
If two amps are both rated at the same power output then one will usually sound louder than the other if:

(These are EQ curve, filtering, compression and 'tone' issues - these points are all regarding increased perceived loudness without any difference in actual power.)

1. It has less bottom
2. It has more midrange
3. It has more treble
4. It has a less clean sound but the dirt is pleasing to your ears
5. It has steep highpass filtering to avoid wasting power on subsonics
6. When it clips it clips in a more sonically pleasing manner
7. It has a good limiter which allows you to push it harder before clipping or unpleasant compression occurs
8. It has in-built compression which increases the average:peak level ratio

(These are specification and power section issues - these points relate to amplifiers actually producing more power in the real world)

1. Its power was rated at a lower %THD
2. It has greater current delivery reserve
3. It can deliver more peak power
4. It is better at handling reactive loads

All comparisons need to be done with a very high spec loudspeaker otherwise its non-linearities at high power will lead you astray. Change the cab and all bets are off - sensitivity makes a HUGE difference to dB out.
[/quote]

+1

Gentlemen, these are the facts.