Old Watts - vs - New Watts

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1320973469' post='1434061']
but... but... 60 pages?????????
[/quote]

No. It got closed at 60 pages and moved to part 2...for a further 30 pages! Needless to say, it gets pretty repetitive

[mcnach]

[quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1321025981' post='1434558']
No. It got closed at 60 pages and moved to part 2...for a further 30 pages! Needless to say, it gets pretty repetitive
[/quote]


ok, I will probably stop at page 25 or so (I'm on 5 )

[xgsjx]

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1321043102' post='1434893']
ok, I will probably stop at page 25 or so (I'm on 5 )
[/quote]
I'd just read page 60 & then enjoy page 30 on Pt II

Regardless of wattage, the RH450 is still a very good amp.

[mcnach]

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1321047235' post='1434978']
Regardless of wattage, the RH450 is still a very good amp.
[/quote]


I agree. I like it a lot and after 2 years of use I can say it does all I need it to do, and there always seems to be more noise on tap than I need.
But it's hard not to feel that buyers were cheated a bit. I can see why they did it... if they say it's 236W and then proceed to explain what they do and how it is louder than what one might expect from an amp rated at 250W, say... I may have not tried one in the end, as I was set to look for things in the 4-500W range. And I suspect I am not the only one who chooses what to try by first deciding some kind of watts ballpark, and then looking at what is available.
It may not be the best way, since there are so many other variables that looking only at watts says nothing... but it is an easy parameter to focus on.

I love the amp. Just don't like a company lying to me.

[xgsjx]

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1321095862' post='1435302']
I agree. I like it a lot and after 2 years of use I can say it does all I need it to do, and there always seems to be more noise on tap than I need.
But it's hard not to feel that buyers were cheated a bit. I can see why they did it... if they say it's 236W and then proceed to explain what they do and how it is louder than what one might expect from an amp rated at 250W, say... I may have not tried one in the end, as I was set to look for things in the 4-500W range. And I suspect I am not the only one who chooses what to try by first deciding some kind of watts ballpark, and then looking at what is available.
It may not be the best way, since there are so many other variables that looking only at watts says nothing... but it is an easy parameter to focus on.

I love the amp. Just don't like a company lying to me.
[/quote]

I think what manufacturers should look at doing is a "loudness" rating. Similar to the energy rating system.
They'd need to give some examples of amps that fall into each category, and realistic ones at that. They can't put a MB LMII & an Ashdown Superfly in the same category if they're rated similar on paper but totally different in reality through the same cab.
& then for amps, they'd have to have a benchmark cab & vice versa when testing cabs.
But then there's a load of other parameters to take into account.

[chris_b]

[size=4][color=#222222][font=Arial]I can't understand how TC owners, especially the [/font][/color][/size][color=#222222][font=Arial][size=1][size=4]US[/size][size=4] ones, feel so cheated and "betrayed"! [/size][/size][/font][/color]
[size=4][color=#222222][font=Arial] [/font][/color][/size][color=#222222][font=Arial][size=1][/size][/font][/color]
[size=4][color=#222222][font=Arial]If TC had promised 500 watts and delivered 250 watts then OK, get upset, complain or sue, but they didn't. They delivered an amp that can beat many 500 watt amps for volume so what should they do? That's not "cheating" or "lying" anymore than saying Special K is going to make you look like a super model or you “wont pay a penny” if you loose a no win no fee court case![/font][/color][/size][color=#222222][font=Arial][size=1][/size][/font][/color]
[size=4][color=#222222][font=Arial] [/font][/color][/size][color=#222222][font=Arial][size=1][/size][/font][/color]
[size=4][color=#222222][font=Arial]If TC had sold their amp as 250 watts "but louder than that" many/most people wouldn't have even looked at them. [/font][/color][/size][color=#222222][font=Arial][size=1][/size][/font][/color]
[size=4][color=#222222][font=Arial] [/font][/color][/size][color=#222222][font=Arial][size=1][/size][/font][/color]
[size=4][color=#222222][font=Arial]If TC can make a 250 watt amp sound like a 500 watt amp and even a 750 watt amp then the RMS rating "standard" doesn't explain what they are doing and is “misleading” for them. If the spec sheet means more than what comes out of the speaker cab then I reckon there are a lot of bass players that should take up a different hobby.[/font][/color][/size][color=#222222][font=Arial][size=1][/size][/font][/color]
[size=4][font=Arial] [/font][/size][font=Arial][size=2][/size][/font]

[chris_b]

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1321096516' post='1435314']
....I think what manufacturers should look at doing is a "loudness" rating. Similar to the energy rating system. They'd need to give some examples of amps that fall into each category, and realistic ones at that....
[/quote]
[size=4][color=#222222][font=Arial]Isn't that what TC did? [/font][/color]

[color=#222222][font=Arial]People don't buy watts, they buy "loudness". They buy an amp or cab at 200 watts or 800 watts based not on the watts but how loud they believe the gear to be. We all know of underperforming gear but nobody seems to get their knickers in a twist about them. [/font][/color]

[color=#222222][font=Arial]TC targeted the marketing of their amps at a category of loudness along side the equipment which their amps compared. [/font][/color]

[color=#222222][font=Arial]The joke for me was an American player bitterly complaining that he wanted to sell his TC amp but he couldn't find any other amp that he liked as much or sounded as good! [/font][/color]

[color=#222222][font=Arial]Get a grip!! [/font][/color][/size]

Edited November 12, 2011 by chris_b

[xgsjx]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1321097753' post='1435336']
[size=4][color=#222222][font=Arial]Isn't that what TC did? [/font][/color]

[color=#222222][font=Arial]People don't buy watts, they buy "loudness". They buy an amp or cab at 200 watts or 800 watts based not on the watts but how loud they believe the gear to be. We all know of underperforming gear but nobody seems to get their knickers in a twist about them. [/font][/color]

[color=#222222][font=Arial]TC targeted the marketing of their amps at a category of loudness along side the equipment which their amps compared. [/font][/color]

[color=#222222][font=Arial]The joke for me was an American player bitterly complaining that he wanted to sell his TC amp but he couldn't find any other amp that he liked as much or sounded as good! [/font][/color]

[color=#222222][font=Arial]Get a grip!! [/font][/color][/size]
[/quote]
I agree.

A lot of manufacturers "specs" claims are misleading. My favourite is when car/home hifi has something like 5x5x5x5x20 w = 12,500 watts of power!

[alanbass1]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1321097075' post='1435330'] [size=4][color=#222222][font=Arial]I can't understand how TC owners, especially the [/font][/color][/size][color=#222222][font=Arial][size=1][size=4]US[/size][size=4] ones, feel so cheated and "betrayed"! [/size][/size][/font][/color] [size=4][color=#222222][font=Arial] [/font][/color][/size][color=#222222][font=Arial][size=1][/size][/font][/color] [size=4][color=#222222][font=Arial]If TC had promised 500 watts and delivered 250 watts then OK, get upset, complain or sue, but they didn't. They delivered an amp that can beat many 500 watt amps for volume so what should they do? That's not "cheating" or "lying" anymore than saying Special K is going to make you look like a super model or you “wont pay a penny” if you loose a no win no fee court case![/font][/color][/size][color=#222222][font=Arial][size=1][/size][/font][/color] [size=4][color=#222222][font=Arial] [/font][/color][/size][color=#222222][font=Arial][size=1][/size][/font][/color] [size=4][color=#222222][font=Arial]If TC had sold their amp as 250 watts "but louder than that" many/most people wouldn't have even looked at them. [/font][/color][/size][color=#222222][font=Arial][size=1][/size][/font][/color] [size=4][color=#222222][font=Arial] [/font][/color][/size][color=#222222][font=Arial][size=1][/size][/font][/color] [size=4][color=#222222][font=Arial]If TC can make a 250 watt amp sound like a 500 watt amp and even a 750 watt amp then the RMS rating "standard" doesn't explain what they are doing and is “misleading” for them. If the spec sheet means more than what comes out of the speaker cab then I reckon there are a lot of bass players that should take up a different hobby.[/font][/color][/size][color=#222222][font=Arial][size=1][/size][/font][/color] [size=4][font=Arial] [/font][/size][font=Arial][size=2][/size][/font] [/quote]

I'm not so sure. TC both rated and advertised their amps as 450 watts and, clearly, this was done knowing it to be factually incorrect. I agree that watts is a measure that, alone, does not give a accurate view as to the 'loudness' of the amp. Much of this is down to many other variables, such as speaker impedance, amount of square footage of speaker displacement, cab design etc. However, Watts are a scientific measure and should be used as such - I wonder how many people have purchased more expensive cabs on the premise that they required the extra power handling to 'be safe' using the RH450?

I notice that since the 'cat is out of the bag', for want of a better term, there is now an explanation of the basis of how TH calculate their wattage. This shows that the true 'wattage' output of the RH750 is 450 watts (4 ohms) and 225 (8 ohms) - so now I understand this I know there will be no need to upgrade my Bergantino HT112/EX112 cabs if I chose to upgrade to the RH750, something I would previously have considered.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1321047235' post='1434978']


Regardless of wattage, the RH450 is still a very good amp.
[/quote]No argument there. I've not found anyone who says that it isn't. But when one goes into a pub and pays for a pint one expects to get a pint, not ten ounces, no matter how good it tastes.

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1324236083' post='1472169']
No argument there. I've not found anyone who says that it isn't. But when one goes into a pub and pays for a pint one expects to get a pint, not ten ounces, no matter how good it tastes.
[/quote]

I actually didn't like it... it's 'loud', but at the expense of what I look for in a bass head.

[chris_b]

[quote name='alanbass1' timestamp='1324229931' post='1472081']
....Watts are a scientific measure and should be used as such....

....I wonder how many people have purchased more expensive cabs on the premise that they required the extra power handling to 'be safe' using the RH450?....
[/quote]
[size=4][color=#222222][font=Arial]"Watts" are [i]not[/i] a scientific measurement. Only RMS watts is, and I don't recall TC claiming RMS. [/font][/color][/size][color=#222222][font=Arial][size=1][/size][/font][/color]
[size=4][color=#222222][font=Arial] [/font][/color][/size][color=#222222][font=Arial][size=1][/size][/font][/color]
[size=4][color=#222222][font=Arial]Why do people keep banging on about full pints, half pints, being short changed? TC is selling an amp that in volume equate to a 450 watt amp. That’s the number that is important here, not the number before it was processed and boosted, that's the number you use when comparing its loudness to other amps, that's the number you use when you are buying cabs for it. That’s it!!! [/font][/color][/size][color=#222222][font=Arial][size=1][/size][/font][/color]
[size=4][color=#222222][font=Arial] [/font][/color][/size][color=#222222][font=Arial][size=1][/size][/font][/color]
[size=4][color=#222222][font=Arial]You can like the sound and you can hate the sound, that's ok, but all this "I've been sold a 236 watt amp and I've been cheated" bleating is getting tiresome. [/font][/color][/size][color=#222222][font=Arial][size=1][/size][/font][/color]

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1324254709' post='1472369']
[size=4][color=#222222][font=Arial]"Watts" are [i]not[/i] a scientific measurement. Only RMS watts is, and I don't recall TC claiming RMS. [/font][/color][/size]

[size=4][color=#222222][font=Arial]Why do people keep banging on about full pints, half pints, being short changed? TC is selling an amp that in volume equate to a 450 watt amp. That’s the number that is important here, not the number before it was processed and boosted, that's the number you use when comparing its loudness to other amps, that's the number you use when you are buying cabs for it. That’s it!!! [/font][/color][/size]

[size=4][color=#222222][font=Arial]You can like the sound and you can hate the sound, that's ok, but all this "I've been sold a 236 watt amp and I've been cheated" bleating is getting tiresome. [/font][/color][/size]
[/quote]Bernie Madoff could have used you on his defense team. The only difference is scale, not intent.

[alanbass1]

Wow, seems I'm being tainted with bleating by having a view. For the record I'm not bleating, just making what I feel is a valid point. One of the key 'measures' I use when buying cabs is based on not having the amplifier output greater than the cabs rated power handling. Others may not, but I do. Unless I'm totally wrong, I don't believe stating an amp sounds like 'n' watts' qualifies as a valid power rating in this context. So, for this very reason I believe that TC Electronic are wrong in the way they present the power rating for their amplifiers.

For the record I'm not talking about pints (never had), and I have not (or ever had) stated I feel I have been cheated. I own a RH450 and a Classic and I use them as my main gigging rig. However, that does not stop me thinking that TC are wrong in the way they have marketed their amps.

There you go, I'm now ready for the return rant...............

[krysh]

well, in my band I am completely happy with my boutique 103 tube powered watts (based on an old sound city slave) or if I am too lazy to carry with my acoustic image focus sa 350w. both with the same 1x12" 8Ohm cabinet.
this is what I'd compare sonically and emotionally in relation from tube to digital loudness: 100 tube watts ≈ 350 digital watts if built in the same quality.

and the soundquality of both is equal. of course with the same bass (4 & 5-String) and preamp.

Edited December 19, 2011 by the_krysh

[icastle]

The multitude of different ways to express volume as 'watts' in terms of amplification has been used for a number of years, by a number of amp manufacturers, as nothing more than a sales and marketing tool and does not benefit end users.

In no other industry, that I can think of, is a measurement capable of being manipulated in this way and it's really about time that an agreed method of measuring and expressing this value was set in stone and adhered to.

[guildbass]

The reason may well be that the smaller amps are clipping and clipped tones sound loud to the human ear. It's why one can get away with a 50 watt Fender Bassman. All that crunch and fart sounds loud.

It's why you need really big power amps if you run clean.
My mate does FOH for Porcupine Tree so he's well up on what works and is always looking for lighter, more wieldable kit. He's been very impressed with the Mackie Class 'D's. They're not any better than the Peaveys as far as I know...Nowt wrong with them...

[guildbass]

[quote name='alanbass1' timestamp='1324332146' post='1473216']
Wow, seems I'm being tainted with bleating by having a view. For the record I'm not bleating, just making what I feel is a valid point. One of the key 'measures' I use when buying cabs is based on not having the amplifier output greater than the cabs rated power handling. Others may not, but I do. Unless I'm totally wrong, I don't believe stating an amp sounds like 'n' watts' qualifies as a valid power rating in this context. So, for this very reason I believe that TC Electronic are wrong in the way they present the power rating for their amplifiers.

For the record I'm not talking about pints (never had), and I have not (or ever had) stated I feel I have been cheated. I own a RH450 and a Classic and I use them as my main gigging rig. However, that does not stop me thinking that TC are wrong in the way they have marketed their amps.

There you go, I'm now ready for the return rant...............
[/quote]

What kills cabs...or rather drivers, is Dc voltage, and the more an amp clips, the flatter the signal peaks get. Clip it enough and those flat plateaus add up to a solid elevated DC voltage...And that will brew up the driver coils. A 10 Watt HiFi amp can happily kill a 500 watt speaker if it's clipped hard into it for long enough. if you want a 'crunch' in your tone, generate it at the front end with a valve pre-amp or something then use a big healthy power amp to simply amplify accurately whatever you've put in...Your rig will love you for it...

[krysh]

[quote name='guildbass' timestamp='1324338355' post='1473296']... if you want a 'crunch' in your tone, generate it at the front end with a valve pre-amp or something then use a big healthy power amp to simply amplify accurately whatever you've put in...Your rig will love you for it...
[/quote]
amen to this for a bass amp.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='guildbass' timestamp='1324338355' post='1473296']
What kills cabs...or rather drivers, is Dc voltage, and the more an amp clips, the flatter the signal peaks get. Clip it enough and those flat plateaus add up to a solid elevated DC voltage...And that will brew up the driver coils. A 10 Watt HiFi amp can happily kill a 500 watt speaker if it's clipped hard into it for long enough. if you want a 'crunch' in your tone, generate it at the front end with a valve pre-amp or something then use a big healthy power amp to simply amplify accurately whatever you've put in...Your rig will love you for it...
[/quote]

Dude, no. All of that is wrong. http://barefacedbass.com/technical-information/mythbusters1.htm

http://billfitzmaurice.info/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1886

Power stage drive is awesome.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='guildbass' timestamp='1324338355' post='1473296']
What kills cabs...or rather drivers, is Dc voltage, and the more an amp clips, the flatter the signal peaks get. Clip it enough and those flat plateaus add up to a solid elevated DC voltage...And that will brew up the driver coils. A 10 Watt HiFi amp can happily kill a 500 watt speaker if it's clipped hard into it for long enough.
[/quote]No. Total myth, I'm afraid, one which is summarily dismissed every time it's unfortunately regurgitated.

[4 Strings]

Now I'm not an expert in this field at all but ...(heh!) isn't it about the different voltage in the output?

We all know that Watts are Volts x Amps. We have a Laney 30W all valve guitar combo and also a Roland Cube 30 in the house. The Cube 30 is 30W and goes loud. The Laney exceeds this volume very quickly and to control the volume knob requires feint taps to touch it round a degree or so at a time as it quickly gets stupid loud.

Sure the Laney could be more conservatively rated but I understood that the output from valve amplifiers is higher in Volts (and therefore lower in Amps) to achieve its 30W (I remember getting a shock from the speaker output of my old Hiwatt one once).

If the higher volts excite speaker coils more readily I wondered that the output from Class D amplifiers is lower yet in Volts and so for the same measured Watts it is less effective.

Is this rot?

[alexclaber]

Yes, it's rot.

P=VI

V=IR

Therefore: P=(VxV)/R

Amps are tested with resistive loads so you can take R to be impedance.

There are established standards which PA power amps adhere to for power measurements. Bass amps don't, presumably because the figures would be rather embarrasingly poor for most of them...

[guildbass]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1324351658' post='1473344']
No. Total myth, I'm afraid, one which is summarily dismissed every time it's unfortunately regurgitated.
[/quote]

Ok...Well I was simply going from the experiences of a mate who used to have to deal with the 'In house' gear of clubs where the resident 'DJ's' used to break into the Amp safe and increase the volumes. because when they were honking into the mic it sounded louder of they ate the thing and got a clipped output. Doing that would melt the coils of the drivers.

I'm afraid I don't follow this. If you run an amp without clipping, your signal waveform has nice rounded peaks. The speaker faithfully follows the changes in voltage.
If however your power amp is offered a too large an input signal, it runs out of headroom, so instead of responding by making the peaks bigger it flattens the larger peak off to form plateaus. if the input signal is big enough, the output waveform essentially looks like the bottom half of each peak with a flat top. in effect, you get a series of flat tops broken only by the odd drop down This is NOT some myth...It's right there on the scope. Those plateaus are at whatever voltage the amp can manage flat out...(Which in the case of my Mosfet amp is 110 volts.)
THAT's there too on the scope. Stick a reasonably steady DC voltage through a voice coil, and the coil presents what is in effect a short circuit. It gets hot and the thing loses mechanical integrity.

Now that's what I've SEEN happen out in the world. That's what I've observed happening on a scope, so someone needs to explain carefully and in simple language why a hard clipped waveform ISN'T DC, when it looks and measures as DC, and why shoving DC through a voice coil won't overheat and ultimately kill that coil.

Help me out because that myth busters list didn't tell me why I am wrong, it just said I was...

[4 Strings]

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1324374804' post='1473434']
Yes, it's rot.

P=VI

V=IR

Therefore: P=(VxV)/R

Amps are tested with resistive loads so you can take R to be impedance.

There are established standards which PA power amps adhere to for power measurements. Bass amps don't, presumably because the figures would be rather embarrasingly poor for most of them...
[/quote]

So power is inversely proportional to the resistance (or, as you say, you could use impedance).

Also P= I x I x R which would show the power increases with the square of the current.

This makes no difference to the speaker? Why are valve power amps so much louder than ss? Is it just headroom?