advice please on timing

[Geek99]

I have lessons and I'm struggling with timing. My teacher thinks I'm trying to do too much at once. He plays bass and drums. I'm not a natural but I am determined to be as good as I can be.

Using a metronome I can pretty much hit the right spots to place the notes (down to eighth notes, not tried sixteenth notes yet), but with a drum track I get totally lost and its vague at best.

My sense of time is okay - we tried just marking beat one and counting the others and I was coming in on the one each time.

advice ? (btw Please dont tell me to work with the metronome set to beat two or anything uber-advanced like that - its just plain confusing at the moment)

[Lozz196]

Find a simple, steady-tempo song by one of your favourite bands, that you know how to play. Then keep playing along to it. Once you`ve got it, try playing the song without the actual music going, and time yourself. Repeat this a few times, if you`ve got the timing ok, you should be within a couple of seconds each time you play it.

Must admit, I`ve never heard of anyone else using this method though, but it works for me, especially if I`m learning a song where the bass is keeping the time, rather than the drums (which may only be playing in the chorus, for example).

[pietruszka]

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1320236766' post='1424058']
Find a simple, steady-tempo song by one of your favourite bands, that you know how to play. Then keep playing along to it. Once you`ve got it, try playing the song without the actual music going, and time yourself. Repeat this a few times, if you`ve got the timing ok, you should be within a couple of seconds each time you play it.

Must admit, I`ve never heard of anyone else using this method though, but it works for me, especially if I`m learning a song where the bass is keeping the time, rather than the drums (which may only be playing in the chorus, for example).
[/quote]

Cracking idea! I always played to cd's when I was learning so learned cd timing. I find the trick is to play slowly, and less. Playing a little less should give you a feel for when the clicks are, its a common habit to rush/play ahead of the metronome or drummer learning. We all did it, I know I certainly did! Ultimately take your time and practice, it'll come to you.


Dan

[dc2009]

my teacher was a guitar teacher teaching bass, but he used to tell me I was trying to do too much. I remember once he left me grooving over Beat It by MJ. A really simple bassline that you [i]can[/i] throw fills into but don't [i]need[/i] to.

I then realised that fills aren't about blasting out 100 notes per second (though I do enjoy that nowadays), it's about making it sound good at first. Fills involving rests and longer notes, i.e. less busy, will really help you keep the groove of the song. Once you have this down, you can work on the fiddly twiddly stuff for the next x years.

I learned playing along to Muse and Nirvana on CD too, used to get my timing fairly well IMO, keep that up and you'll go far.

[yorick]

Buy a drum machine and programme some simple beats into it. Great practice tool.

[jakenewmanbass]

sounds to me like you are struggling to understand where you fit, you must listen closely to what parts you should be playing, that would work with the rest of the music, let alone a drum track. If your teacher can't pin down exactly what you aren't playing that you should be then his or her analytical skills are wanting, any good teacher should be able to tell you exactly what is required and give you a range of ways in which to play it, all broken down into palatable chunks that you can digest, absorb and regurgitate, It's not rocket science it's simply knowing what you're doing.
PM if you would like further details.

[thumperbob 2002]

All humans have internal clocks are you are probably a lot better than you think you are with regard to timing. The advice I would give is to play along with records- ( makes it more enjoyable ) and really listen to the drums. This will make your playing more instinctive- concentrate on what the drums are doing and not yourself too much. You will feel it.

Then record yourself and listen back- believe me you will get better very quickly.

[Geek99]

thanks - i do record myself using a Line 6 backtrack.

[stingrayPete1977]

Im going to sound like Doddy here but do you read? Im a novice reader but understanding the sub divisions of the beats has tightened my playing up a lot even after 20 years of playing, Sometimes I can just feel its not quite bang on so I will count it out down into 16ths (1 e and a, 2 e and a, etc) if needed and it usually highlights where Im going wrong.

[Geek99]

Yes and no - I can read rhythms but I'm still working on reading pitches

[LiamPodmore]

One thing that massively helped me with timing issues i used to have, which might sound stupid to some people, but i started tapping my foot with the beat, which most people seem to do anyway, and somehow that managed to keep me in time. I still do it now when i'm playing on my own, without a track.

Edit for spelling failures.

Liam

Edited November 3, 2011 by LiamPodmore

[seashell]

[quote name='LiamPodmore' timestamp='1320316951' post='1425136']
One thing that massively helped me with timing issues i used to have, which might sound stupid to some people, but i started tapping my foot with the beat, which most people seem to do anyway, and somehow that managed to keep me in time. I still do it now when i'm playing on my own, without a track.

Edit for spelling failures.

Liam
[/quote]

Doesn't sound stupid to me. My bass teacher is always telling me to do that.

[charic]

Strangely I struggle to tap my foot when sat down

[Fat Rich]

Subdivide anything with a constant tempo into 8th notes and 16th notes (later when you've the hang of this try quarter note triplets, 8th triplets, 16th triplets). It could be the ticking of the indicators in your car or your footsteps while you're walking or whatever song is playing on the radio. The more you do it the quicker you'll get good at it.

Also just because you're struggling a bit with 8th notes at the moment doesn't mean you shouldn't be tackling 16ths, it'll help you get to grips with 8ths quicker.

You might find it very tricky switching between 8th and 16ths to the various triplets at first but once you get used to it you'll have no trouble placing the notes.

Good luck!

[Chlo_treacher]

just follow the bass drum exactly for the rhythm of what ever it is that your playing and you will not only improve your timing, but your groove too and start to understand the role of a bassist alot more. the hardest thing is not overplaying, but if you just literally play with the drummer's foot and maybe add the odd fill or passing note in here and there (again preferably where drummer adds in a fill and to the same rhythm as he does it) you wont ever go wrong. good luck! x

[Geek99]

Ok following on from what Yorick and the lovely chlo say, I'm going to set my alesis sr16 to bass drum on beats 1 and 3 and 3+ and snare on 2 and 4 and 4+ but I'm also going to leave every alternate bar as just bass drum on 1 so I can check if I'm back on the 1 at the start of the next bar**

And record it

** toddler permitting

[Chlo_treacher]

sounds great good luck! hope it works for you x

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='Geek99' timestamp='1320408675' post='1426404']
Ok following on from what Yorick and the lovely chlo say, I'm going to set my alesis sr16 to bass drum on beats 1 and 3 and 3+ and snare on 2 and 4 and 4+ but I'm also going to leave every alternate bar as just bass drum on 1 so I can check if I'm back on the 1 at the start of the next bar**

And record it

** toddler permitting
[/quote]
I have the same machine, I have no idea how you programme it though I just set it rock and get going.

[Geek99]

It's not exactly intuitive but if you read the manual it's all there

[clarkpegasus4001]

I would play something simple (say AC/CD as an example),and play along to the record/cd. I always tap my foot when playing to help stay in time. Good luck!

Edited November 8, 2011 by clarkpegasus4001

[SJA]

playing along to AC/DC and Def Leppard tracks made for good 8th note timing practice for me- also good for getting note volume and tonal consistency tight as well.

[chardbass]

Had my answer all ready and saw that the last few posts were on the same train of thought.
One of the first albums I learnt to was AC/DC's Back In Black.
I swear that this helped me develop my timing and sense of groove in my formative years.

[cytania]

I had the same problem and still spend plenty of time checking I'm playing with the bass drum. The bass drum sound can often get lost in a busy drum pattern or smothered in the mix on records. Part of the problem is the bass should be playing a note right on top of it.

I often watch the front skin of the kick drum or if this doesn't move the drummer's foot. You should be looking to almost beat him to it. Imagine that the pedal's defective and you have to fill in for it. The good news is that as you learn how the bass and drum parts fit together you can judge your timing by the snare beats as well, although these can vary from drummer to drummer.

When I concentrate on matching the bass drum it tightens things up, but not always. Sometimes the song requires a loose feel. When I started bass I would over-compensate, veering across the beats. The feeling you want is a tiny bit more snap. a tiny bit more punch, and when you're 'on beat' the bass drum can disappear like being in the eye of a storm.

Part of it is developing an ear, not just for the drums but also bass sounds. Recordings have all kinds of clever cheats like using a synths or horns to carry the 1 swamping the drum and bass 1.

[Mog]

[quote name='Geek99' timestamp='1320232908' post='1423982']
I have lessons and I'm struggling with timing. My teacher thinks I'm trying to do too much at once. He plays bass and drums. I'm not a natural but I am determined to be as good as I can be.

Using a metronome I can pretty much hit the right spots to place the notes (down to eighth notes, not tried sixteenth notes yet), but with a drum track I get totally lost and its vague at best.

My sense of time is okay - we tried just marking beat one and counting the others and I was coming in on the one each time.

advice ? (btw Please dont tell me to work with the metronome set to beat two or anything uber-advanced like that - its just plain confusing at the moment)
[/quote]

Firstly, no one is a natural bassist/musician. You'll get out what you put in.
I've noticed with some beginners that I've thought that it can take a few months to get them playing in a fluid manner. Others can pick this up easily. I think that you may be focusing on this aspect too much. Instead try to relax and play what comes naturally. You may find that you prefer to come in on the second or third beat and thats fine. You're developing a personal style.

There are many reference points which you can use when playing along with a drum track eg. bass drum, snare, between the bass drum and snare, hihats etc. You'll know your start and end points so just join up the two.
Timing is not just about playing within conventions. If you can hold a beat in 4/4 at 80 bpm you can do it at 3/4, 5/4 etc. Its all just a matter of practice, just give yourself time to improve.
KEEP USING THAT METRONOME . It does help.

[Geek99]

thanks to all, particularly Cytania. I disagree with Mog, some people, like my mother, can pick out a tune on a broken guitar with no strings, I'm not one of them, is what I meant.

I've recorded a drum track to mp3 as discussed earlier - I just keep getting "upload failed" - any ideas? Error 413 (I think), tried both basic and advanced loaders

Edited November 9, 2011 by Geek99